hardened valve seats

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veitchy67
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hardened valve seats

Post by veitchy67 »

hi everyone would like some advice ,is it worth getting hardened valve seats or just use additive ,also weres the best place to get them done in cumbria if i decide to go down that route engines are the 3.0 essex and the 2.8 cologne regards david
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Mc Tool »

My take on that is to use the additive if that is the only issue as its relatively cheap and easy to do compared to removing cylinder head(s) ....unless you can do the removal and refitting yourself. If you were replacing the head gasket for instance then it would make sense to do the seats at the same time.
My pinto engine was loosing about a thou of exhaust valve clearance per 1000 miles untill I started using an additive and it didnt show any wear at all . I first used Valvemaster untill it got stupid expensive and after that I used penrite upper cyl lube/lead replacement.
Does the 2.8 not already have hardened seats?
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veitchy67
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by veitchy67 »

i am stripping the engines down for a rebuild,but been told both to get them replaced and just to leave them as.so just trying to get an idea from you guys .the 2.8 efi ones had the hardend valve seat only not the standard 2.8 as far as i been told but not 100% sure
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Stroker »

veitchy67 wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:53 pm i am stripping the engines down for a rebuild,but been told both to get them replaced and just to leave them as.so just trying to get an idea from you guys .the 2.8 efi ones had the hardend valve seat only not the standard 2.8 as far as i been told but not 100% sure
Not all 2.8 EFI heads had hardened seats, so good luck finding a set. If you are going to put hardened seats in the 2.8 heads find a machinist that has experience in fitting them to the cologne heads as there's a fine line to get them right or completely [email protected]#king the heads.:crying: Essex engines should have no troubles fitting hardened seats at all.
veitchy67
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by veitchy67 »

cheers for your replys
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by pbar »

The other option is just to drive it with no additive and save your money, you may never need them doing anyway. If the time comes in the future that you wish to have it done, the money you have saved will easily do it I should think. And you may never even need it doing in any case.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Mr B »

pbar wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:22 pm The other option is just to drive it with no additive and save your money, you may never need them doing anyway. If the time comes in the future that you wish to have it done, the money you have saved will easily do it I should think. And you may never even need it doing in any case.
:agree:

Never used any additives in any of my Essex V6's - unleaded or super unleaded, no issues with valve seat recession....yet

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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by SCP440 »

Image

For those that dont think they need an addative or to get there valve seats replaced look at this photo, this is an American engine that had done about 20k miles with none of the above, the valves had gone into the water passage ways and they were junk.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Mr B »

SCP440 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:29 pm Image

For those that dont think they need an addative or to get there valve seats replaced look at this photo, this is an American engine that had done about 20k miles with none of the above, the valves had gone into the water passage ways and they were junk.
Hi mate,

I'm not saying it can't happen, but from my personal experience it hasn't happened - haven't used any additives since unleaded was introduced here in the UK and I haven't had an issue as of yet.

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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by pbar »

Mr B wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:39 pm from my personal experience it hasn't happened - haven't used any additives since unleaded was introduced here in the UK and I haven't had an issue as of yet.

Wayne

That's good to know Wayne, and I've seen that said numerous times. When I see pics such as the one posted, I tend to think is it just the petrol that's caused that as suggested, or actually something else at play.

It is a fact that many people just drive their classics including Capri's on standard fuel with no additive and have no problems.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by SCP440 »

I have a friend with an old 1970's Mini that has had no problems, the engine as far as we know has never been out of the car and apart from a bit of smoke on start up it runs perfectly. He does not put addative in and drives it hard.

From what I have read it can be what is called the memory effect of when we had Lead.

After seeing the above I always put addative in for what it costs ( less than £4 a tank). If I ever need to take the heads off I will get them converted. Its not like we are doing big mileages.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by veitchy67 »

thanks again for all the replys regards david
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Major_Tom »

My pinto was fine for 5 years of being thrashed and then VSR began. Started on number 3 and now all of them close up after about 1000 miles. Heads coming off soon and having hardened inserts fitted.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Mc Tool »

Apparently😁 the cast iron seats "work harden " with the benefit of the lead lube /cushoning effect......sort of like how you would peen the surface after welding it , and when the lead is removed the seats last for a bit (just how long probly depends on a few things ) and then start to fail .
🤔 Aaah yeah , I could have just made that up😆😆
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Bug »

If the OP is dismantling the engine anyway, then surely fit the seats while it's apart.
A word of warning: if you re-lap the valves in then you will wear away any build up of lead that 'may' have occurred anyway.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Mc Tool »

Major_Tom wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:10 pm My pinto was fine for 5 years of being thrashed and then VSR began. Started on number 3 and now all of them close up after about 1000 miles. Heads coming off soon and having hardened inserts fitted.
yeah its surprising just how fast they wear once it starts. On my pinto engine it only needs to loose about 3 thou of ex valve clearance before it affects the way it runs , specially idle and low revs .
Bugs idea about lapping any lead off the seats could be right too
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by D366Y »

Bug wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:41 pm If the OP is dismantling the engine anyway, then surely fit the seats while it's apart.
A word of warning: if you re-lap the valves in then you will wear away any build up of lead that 'may' have occurred anyway.
I'd agree - if it's coming apart anyway then you may as well do it while it's apart... I had mine done when the engine was being rebuilt because the biggest cost was stripping the engine anyway

I run the other one without hardened seats and without additive as my own mini experiment to see how they compare
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Lord Flasheart »

Posted this on CP July 2020, thought it might help

Well here's an update I wasn't expecting to post.

4 years almost to the day from being completed, & approx. 6,000 miles driven, Biscuit returned to the workshop for its Covid delayed annual service & check over & MOT. I had mentioned to my mate that recently I had noticed the occasional small puff of blue (oil) smoke when she was warmed up. As luck would have it, he picked up the car from my house last week & was followed the 25 miles back to the workshop, where it was noticed that on coming off the throttle & going back on, there was indeed a hint of blue smoke from the drivers side exhaust.

However, on flooring the throttle, nothing was witnessed. I was told that even at 90-100mph on a local private multilane road, nothing was visible.

Fast forward to Monday, initial investigations of valve seal wear were discounted, then the heads were removed ………… OMG !!!!

The valves & seats look like they have done 60,000 miles not 6,000, they are pitted, the seats recessed & the valves have play in them. After consulting Tickover, its due to using unleaded, even with additive with unmodified heads. I cant recall exactly why we chose not to upgrade the heads at the time, but they were in very good condition & as the engine was rebuilt in the very early stages of the light bottom end tidy up, I think the wisdom at the time said …. "Essex, pretty bullet proof, should be fine, its lasted this long" … or some such like that.

Hindsight tells a different story. Apparently it is recommended that even after the new unleaded heads, springs & valves etc have been fitted, always use super unleaded & continue to use additive with every fill up. 95Ron is roughly 3 Star in proper money, Essex engines hail from the glory days of 4 & 5 Star.

New heads ordered, will be 2 weeks or so & when all back together, will be followed by upgraded fuelling regime. Just to add, I have alternated between regular unleaded with additive & super unleaded over the last 4 years & still look what this does, lesson to be learnt for folks with unmodified Essex engines. Fortunately we have caught this in time, if valves etc had let go, it could be a whole lot worse.
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Re: hardened valve seats

Post by Mr B »

I had a conversation with Clive from Tickover a couple of weeks ago and mentioned this subject to him, he said in all the years the workshop was open he couldn't recall a single Essex engine coming in with this problem, he said the Cologne V6 was by far the worst culprit for this problem, seems some engines are more susceptible than others I guess.
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