Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

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CapriFreak
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Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

The clutch Pedal on my Capri has always been quite high up along with the biting point in comparison to the Brake Pedal. It means when you pull off in 1st you sound like a learner driver most of the time. When you floor it though I dont see the rev counter going up etc like if the clutch is slipping.

I noticed the other week when I took the Car for a drive that the gear stick seemed a bit "sticky" when you wanted to pull it out of gear (fine to put into gear) and it was only every other change. It was hot and I was in traffic so I put it down to that, its not really done it since but, when I got in it today I thought the bite point was right on the end of the pedal now (i dont use the car a lot so maybe its the same) but I'm wondering if the bite can be changed with the adjustment or if the clutch has had it?? How would I check if its the clutch rather than the Cable? I'm a bit concerned the cable or something is about to let go so and leave me stranded.

Heres a quick video of under the car. The cable seems quite tight and the clutch seems to creak quite a lot... maybe thats normal though??

[YouTube]https://youtu.be/CdrQTcw5D0A[/YouTube]

My other question is. Theres a horrible rattling noise that appears after driving after about a minute . I'm still trying to track it down and I wonder if its something to do with the clutch. Its more prominent around gear changes and high gears/low revs. Heres a video of this just in case anyone can recognise the noise.

[YouTube]https://youtu.be/vDmbhwOHxBw[/YouTube]
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Mc Tool »

Clutch screeching is probly lack of lube . The rattle sounds like a cam follower destroying itself .
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Bug »

If you are able to disengage the clutch right at the top of the pedal movement then it is hanging right on the edge of disengagement all the time. Extra torque or even a bit of heat could make it slip just enough to make the noise. Or the release bearing is making the noise for the same reasons.
You should be able to put your fingers under the clutch pedal and lift it freely up an inch, then it should drop back down.
If not, then get under the car, slacken off the lock nut on the clutch adjustment at the bell housing and wind the cable in and out until you get that amount of free play on the pedal. Hopefully that's all it needs.

(I think I'm right in saying that as the clutch wears the pedal drops further before it bites. So you either have a new clutch or someone has wound the cable up tight to compensate for a worn one.)

This will not repair your cam follower rattle though. That could be terminal and is most likely down to the oil spray bar being blocked at the ends.
Worst case with that is a complete cam replacement kit.
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by D366Y »

I'm sure there is also a way to adjust the clutch as described in the Haynes manual but I can't be sure and I've never tried it myself.
Failing that I'd say change it anyway

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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

Cheers for the replies guys! When I get time I’ll try to adjust this cable. I always thought that if the clutch was high and the bite point at the top this could be a nackard clutch? Is a low clutch bite not a new clutch? Maybe I’m wrong.
I thought maybe if I adjusted it tighter that with the bite point being high up it would snap the cable (I’m not basing that on any science) putting extra strain on it?

Re the cam noise. It doesn’t do it when you rev the car say on the throttle linkage under the bonnet out of gear . It only happens when driving and under a load it seems. I thought it was pinging at first. It sounds a lot louder in the cabin than when I put the GoPro under the bonnet . I did the tappets last year and didn’t notice anything wildly loose?
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Bug »

You are not actually adjusting the clutch though. That is held in place with the springs and release bearing.
You are adjusting the take up point of the cable. If it's tight it is always holding the clutch on the point of disengaging.
Put some slack in the cable. The weight of the pedal takes that up, but allows the clutch to sit tight with no strain on it.
In hindsight I think you're right about the wear and pedal heights.

If the rattling noise only occurs under load it could be 'pinking' (pre-ignition). This is usually caused by retarded timing, but it can also be due to weak mixture. Fuel actually helps to cool the cylinder head, otherwise all the tiny high points in the metal act as miniature spark plugs and ignite the mixture before it reaches the correct ignition point.
These days it is very common for garages to tune your car to the leanest they can get and back off the ignition timing too.
I'd personally sacrifice a tiny bit of fuel consumption and tweak that mixture back up a bit, plus check your timing is ok.

Point to note: even adjusting the valve clearances will have an effect as you're effectively changing the timing of the valves opening and closing.
If the car was tuned with big valve gaps, then you closed them down, it could potentially upset the running.
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by stevemarl »

Bug wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:46 am (I think I'm right in saying that as the clutch wears the pedal drops further before it bites.
That sounds right, then again, thinking about it.... but either way, if the cable is periodically adjusted to take up the wear, the travel should be ythe same so the take-up point should be the same?
Bug wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:46 am You should be able to put your fingers under the clutch pedal and lift it freely up an inch, then it should drop back down.

That`s the way the Ford workshop manual suggests.

That creaking sounds bad, either the pivot point for the arm is completely dry, or maybe a crack in the diaphragm spring? It certainly shouldn`t sound like that.
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

[/quote]

That creaking sounds bad, either the pivot point for the arm is completely dry, or maybe a crack in the diaphragm spring? It certainly shouldn`t sound like that.
[/quote]

Yeah I didnt think that sounded right. How do you lubricant the arm or is it not possible without taking the gearbox off? Maybe If I adjust it and give the cable some slack/ the pedal travel gets a bit lower it could help?

I did wonder (not that I know a lot about this stuff) but if that rattling could be a cracked clutch spring?
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

Bug wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:38 am You are not actually adjusting the clutch though. That is held in place with the springs and release bearing.
You are adjusting the take up point of the cable. If it's tight it is always holding the clutch on the point of disengaging.
Put some slack in the cable. The weight of the pedal takes that up, but allows the clutch to sit tight with no strain on it.
In hindsight I think you're right about the wear and pedal heights.

If the rattling noise only occurs under load it could be 'pinking' (pre-ignition). This is usually caused by retarded timing, but it can also be due to weak mixture. Fuel actually helps to cool the cylinder head, otherwise all the tiny high points in the metal act as miniature spark plugs and ignite the mixture before it reaches the correct ignition point.
These days it is very common for garages to tune your car to the leanest they can get and back off the ignition timing too.
I'd personally sacrifice a tiny bit of fuel consumption and tweak that mixture back up a bit, plus check your timing is ok.

Point to note: even adjusting the valve clearances will have an effect as you're effectively changing the timing of the valves opening and closing.
If the car was tuned with big valve gaps, then you closed them down, it could potentially upset the running.
When I took the rocker off last year all the clearences were mega tight as I remember with the odd one not. I set them to what the Haynes said and Ive had a few comments of how quiet it is at idle. Is there a different setting for modern fuel etc?

I know a garage set it to 10 Degrees and I pulled it back to about 8 to try and eliminate this. It didnt seem to change much except being slower. The garage also fitted a cheapo electric fuel pump as I was having starting problems. Turned out to be the accelerator pump which i figured out :shock: so I recently reverted back to the manual pump and it sounds a bit better but still there. Noticeable if you put it in 4th and accelerate lightly, you can kind of hold the noise there. I have an Escort that does this but its a different sound, another garage didnt think it was this so... i'm really confused.
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by STEVEW »

Hi Caprifreak,
The videos you suppled were well done – I’m impressed!

The ‘creaking ‘ sound could come from the pedal pivot area or a dry steel cable in its sleeve.
If you can do the work yourself a can of WD 40 could help isolate the problem here. It’s certainly a cheap start!
If you can, check the clutch adjustment as “Bug” recommends.
I however, had a problem hearing the “rattling sound” when you’re driving – my ears are a few years old now.
When the rattling starts, does it go away if you allow the car to coast by depressing the clutch pedal, while still in gear?

You could also temporarily change the setting at the clutch lever to see of the symptoms change.

You say that you also have an intermittent problem with gear selection.
These symptoms appear to be similar to two separate problems I have had.
The first was with a Ford F250 V6 in the African bush. The rattling sound became terminal. Some of the steel “fingers” on the clutch friction plate had sheared hence, no drive. (How that was fixed is a story in itself)
The second incident was with a Ford Escort during a rally. Suddenly, if I remember correctly, I could only select second and fourth gears.
That was the bearing in the back of the crankshaft: it had broken up allowing presumably, the end of gearbox input shaft to “float around”.
You don’t say how long the clutch has been in the car, perhaps it’s coming to the end of its life?

In short, I think you may have to pull the gearbox and inspect the clutch parts together with the crank spigot bearing.
All the best.
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Bug »

CapriFreak wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:07 am When I took the rocker off last year all the clearences were mega tight as I remember with the odd one not. I set them to what the Haynes said and Ive had a few comments of how quiet it is at idle. Is there a different setting for modern fuel etc?
How many miles have you done since then?
Tight clearances could point to valve seat recession. No lead in the fuel so the valves micro-weld themselves to the seats through lack of lubrication then rip a tiny bit away each time. Do you use a lead replacement additive?
I think I'd be checking those clearances again first. Potentially could be a valve not quite seating?
I too had trouble working out exactly what the noise was. If you're convinced it's engine, in high gears, under load, then pinking is the favourite IMO.

So if it were me I'd be:
1. Adjusting the clutch cable so the pedal has that inch of free lift.
2. Rechecking the valve clearances.
3. Either cleaning out or replacing the oil spray bar while the cam cover is off. If cleaning, then make extra certain that the two end holes are clear. Oil comes in the middle so any crud builds up at the two ends and blocks those spray holes first.

Once you have answers from those tasks, move on as required.
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by STEVEW »

Bug wrote:
I too had trouble working out exactly what the noise was. If you're convinced it's engine, in high gears, under load, then pinking is the favourite IMO.
Agreed.
After all resetting the ignition timing and doing a quick road test doesn't cost much and it could rule out one possibility of where the noise is from.
:cheers:
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

Cheers for all these replies guys! I will start with the clutch adjustment and go from there. Hopefully I can do that over the next couple days .

Things I’ve tried so far are. Cleaning the Pcv (PVC?)valve, new intake gasket and top carb gasket (haven’t changed the base plate gasket yet but it wasn’t long ago replaced). Dismantled the choke and tapped up what couldn’t easily be removed (I thought it was that rattling). Gone back to manual pump. I do wonder if it’s just pinking as it seems a bit quieter with the new manual fuel pump but not gone at all. I reduced the timing to 8 degrees but maybe I should try 6 or 4? Could a dodgy idle screw cause this in the carb or not be in play at this point?

I’ve owned the Car for 3 years but it’s had that many problems the more I’ve fixed the more prominent noises like this have become. I haven’t done a lot of miles in it as I had a tone of Carb problems which I only fixed this year. I’m hoping it’s nothing deep in the engine and terminal but again I’ll just go through it again starting with the clutch. I’d say I’ve probably only done 200-300 miles around town since owning it.

Cheers for the comments on my YouTube videos Steve and your help mate! Is it the spigot bearing by the back of the crank? If you want to see more I have a channel called Retro & Rusty where most of my Capri head scratching moments can be seen haha!

Here’s my most recent video doing a compression test .
[YouTube] https://youtu.be/Tnj_85OE6mY[/YouTube]
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by STEVEW »

Hi CapriFreak
Thanks for your response.

I’ve watched parts of your YouTube videos, which answers a couple of questions I had.
You seem to want to tackle almost anything yourself and you’ve got a 2.0 Pinto engine.

According to info I’ve got, if your engine is 1974/75: Idle 700 +/- 25rpm – Ign. Timing 4°TDC
1976 on: Idle 825 +/-25 rpm – Ign. Timing 8°TDC
Is it the spigot bearing by the back of the crank? Yes

As for the “pinking” (noise)
Have you tried using another fuel? If you buy your petrol at a supermarket it could be crap quality. In other words, it probably doesn’t have enough of the additives that, for example, “Shell” and other major brands use in their fuel to prevent pre-ignition.
I would suggest when your tank is almost empty put about 20 litres in . (Just ignore the price tumblers: your eyes won’t be able to keep up with them.) :roll: :shock: and do a test drive

Let us know how you get on. :goodluck:
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

STEVEW wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:30 am Hi CapriFreak
Thanks for your response.

I’ve watched parts of your YouTube videos, which answers a couple of questions I had.
You seem to want to tackle almost anything yourself and you’ve got a 2.0 Pinto engine.

According to info I’ve got, if your engine is 1974/75: Idle 700 +/- 25rpm – Ign. Timing 4°TDC
1976 on: Idle 825 +/-25 rpm – Ign. Timing 8°TDC
Is it the spigot bearing by the back of the crank? Yes

As for the “pinking” (noise)
Have you tried using another fuel? If you buy your petrol at a supermarket it could be crap quality. In other words, it probably doesn’t have enough of the additives that, for example, “Shell” and other major brands use in their fuel to prevent pre-ignition.
I would suggest when your tank is almost empty put about 20 litres in . (Just ignore the price tumblers: your eyes won’t be able to keep up with them.) :roll: :shock: and do a test drive

Let us know how you get on. :goodluck:
Cheers Steve. I do want to tackle anything I can myself as a few garages have had the car, charged me a lot of money and if figured a lot out myself by asking on here or Retro Rides for advice. I want it to be right and not just “that’ll do”.

The engine is from a 1983 Granada from looking at the serial number / number matching on the carb matches an 83 Granada 2.0.
I guessed the spigot bearing was on the back but was just asking if that was the bearing mentioned previously that disintegrated?

Always use Shell or Gulf decent fuel as they are close stations to me but the fuel gauge is pretty off so maybe it is a bit low. It says there’s nothing in it but if I put £20 in it were 3/4 full so it must be wrong.

It’s set to 8TDC at the moment but maybe I need to play with this more. The Carb idle screw has basically no change to the revs etc to compensate which from other videos I thought it would.
If I don’t get chance tomorrow it will be the following week till I get to play with it. Fingers crossed a clutch adjustment, timing check and more decent fuel (or additive ) will sort it .
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Mc Tool »

My fuel gauge never quite hit full , but when the needle is right at the bottom of the red ....goes for another 100 miles ....measured . Im to scared to fix it as i know I will run out of juice 😁
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by CapriFreak »

Ive been working like mad over the last few days and away this coming week but! I pulled the Capri out for 10 mins and had a look at this cable situation. I didnt get very far as I only have one 16mm spanner :/ I tried mole grips which were too wide and realised if I mess this up I havent got the time to waste this week... anyway I'm sure I have another spanner somewhere.

(nice oil leak dripping out of that drivers side bell housing )
789A00C8-FD62-465E-96F4-33E9C52CB096.JPG
I had a read of the Haynes and from what I'm getting you:
- Undo the lock nuts at the bell housing
- Get someone to pull the clutch pedal up towards the steeringwheel? (it says to the stop but wouldnt this be where its at now??)
- I guess then you pull the cable back through the bell housing and tighten the locknut? and it should all be sorted.

just thought I'd add these and my laymans version above as I wont be able to atempt this for a week anyway now.
Screenshot 2021-07-02 at 16.33.30.png
Screenshot 2021-07-02 at 16.34.12.png
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Mr B »

Bug wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:38 am You are not actually adjusting the clutch though. That is held in place with the springs and release bearing.
You are adjusting the take up point of the cable. If it's tight it is always holding the clutch on the point of disengaging.
Put some slack in the cable. The weight of the pedal takes that up, but allows the clutch to sit tight with no strain on it.
In hindsight I think you're right about the wear and pedal heights.

If the rattling noise only occurs under load it could be 'pinking' (pre-ignition). This is usually caused by retarded timing, but it can also be due to weak mixture. Fuel actually helps to cool the cylinder head, otherwise all the tiny high points in the metal act as miniature spark plugs and ignite the mixture before it reaches the correct ignition point.
These days it is very common for garages to tune your car to the leanest they can get and back off the ignition timing too.
I'd personally sacrifice a tiny bit of fuel consumption and tweak that mixture back up a bit, plus check your timing is ok.

Point to note: even adjusting the valve clearances will have an effect as you're effectively changing the timing of the valves opening and closing.
If the car was tuned with big valve gaps, then you closed them down, it could potentially upset the running.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I was always taught that 'pinking' was caused by the ignition being to advanced or crap petrol, is this not correct?
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Mc Tool »

Yeah , I would have thought. A lean mix is harder to ignite , hence these kick arse ignition systems on modern cars, so that would make it an unlikely culprit (I think someone said retarded when they meant advanced 🙂) .
Mine jingles away at 8deg ,not to bad at 4 using 96oct. On 100+ set a 8 deg its a different car ......it loves it .
I goofed and accidently bought low comp pistons which didnt become evident untill I fitted them....so I whacked 70thou off the deck and bought a power pulley. Turns out I probly shoulda only taken 60 thou of it (like the guy at the machine shop said 🙄). So Im guessing comp ratio is about 9.75-10:1 .
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Re: Bad clutch or adjustment? Also strange noise.

Post by Bug »

Could have caught me out there on the retarded/advanced discussion. I'll take that one. :?

However, in my defence, I got the causes muddled up. What I was meaning was that weak mixture makes the cylinder run hotter (less fuel to cool it). Therefore the heat of the metal can ignite the mixture before the spark occurs, trying to force the piston back down before it's reached the top.
If we extrapolate from that, it means the proper ignition spark is happening too late..................ergo, it is retarded. :D

The cause of pinking you mention is the spark occurring too early and causing the same scenario. However, this is not 'pre-ignition', it is the correct ignition at the wrong time.

Wow, needed a big old JCB to dig my way out of that one. :xd:
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