Hybrid cars

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Mc Tool
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Hybrid cars

Post by Mc Tool »

Just seen an add on TV boasting that this particular hybrid doesnt need to be plugged in "it recharges while you drive it ".Not the only one to make this claim .
Now when I went to school the guts was that energy cannot be created or destroyed , it can be made to change forms ..... like electricity into heat , kinetic energy into sound...... and chemical energy into heat - to mechanical energy ........ what makes our cars move .
If it takes x amount of energy to move a car a given distance ....wether its chemical ( petrol ) or electric rechargeable batteries the energy required must be the same ( ignoring associated losses due to friction , wind resistance and rolling resistance of tires which will be the same regardless of fuel source) , so if you use x kw/hr out of the battery that same amount must then be put back into the battery by converting chemical energy into electrical energy to recharge said battery from the I.C.E . How the Megan Markle are we saving energy or money? At the end of the day the whole thing is powered completely by petrol.........which is where we get back to "it takes x amount of energy to move said car the given distance previously mentioned.
I seen a thing on you tube where Ford America have stockpiled 10's of thousands of E.V"s they cant sell. Ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Andrew 2.8i
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by Andrew 2.8i »

Is the charging managed through a regenerative braking mode, where a motor linked to the crankshaft acts as a generator when the engine is slowing, recharging the hybrid batteries? That way are you harvesting energy that otherwise would be wasted?
That's all I know. Please direct all technology enquiries elsewhere, as I wouldn't be able to answer them! :lol:

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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by Stish704 »

I don’t think Americans are interested in electric vehicles. We’ve been a few times in the past couple of years and haven’t seen many.
Same in Spain. Seen very few out there.
It seems to me like we’re being used as a Guinea pig country to see how they progress with them.
Personally, can’t stand electric cars. Don’t see the viability of them.
No good in certain climates, like Scandinavia for example. Not seen an electric Volvo yet?
I get the hybrid though, great idea but as there is always going to be a supply of fossil fuels they just need to find a more sustainable way of using it.
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Andrew 2.8i
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by Andrew 2.8i »

Stish704 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:22 am Not seen an electric Volvo yet?
Volvo sell their electric cars under the Polestar brand.
I agree that they could be troublesome in colder conditions though.

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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by nemo »

Mc Tool wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:24 am Just seen an add on TV boasting that this particular hybrid doesnt need to be plugged in "it recharges while you drive it ".Not the only one to make this claim .
Now when I went to school the guts was that energy cannot be created or destroyed , it can be made to change forms ..... like electricity into heat , kinetic energy into sound...... and chemical energy into heat - to mechanical energy ........ what makes our cars move .
Very good point!
Yes, this is something I don`t get either, seems as though there`s a petrol engine which charges batteries which drive electric motors (a bit like the old diesel trains which I`d always thught had a massive diesel engine driving the wheels... only recently discovered that the diesel engine drove a generator which drove electric motors which drove the wheels. Diesel electric - Doh!) I`m guessing this is the same, but with batteries.... As you, and Isaac, quite rightly say, energy can`t be created or destroyed it can only change form. In practice every time you change one form of energy into another there`s always a loss, heat, friction etc which can be quite large. So instead of turning heat energy into rotational (with maybe <50% efficiency, you`re now taking that 50% and driving a generator to produce electricity + heat(???% loss) then using that to drive motors + heat(???% loss) How on earth can that be more efficient??? Andrew`s right in that some of the energy will be re-couped by regenerative braking, but again, that only applies when actually braking/slowing. When `cruising` which could* be 95% of the time, the energy is all one way - out. I wonder if it`s all just a marketing ploy to ease people into believing EVs are viable, an EV without all the downsides?
I`d be curious to know if anyone CAN explain this?
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by nemo »

Andrew 2.8i wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:42 am
Stish704 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:22 am Not seen an electric Volvo yet?
Volvo sell their electric cars under the Polestar brand.
I agree that they could be troublesome in colder conditions though.

Andrew.
Andrew, I read this week that Volvo have sold their stake in Polestar back to Geely due to IIRC poor sales? (how that works, as last I heard Geely were the major shareholders in Volvo...
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/volvo- ... ar-funding
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by SCP440 »

This energy conversion is not as simple as you think, a petrol engine is more and less efficient at different rpm's, if the engine is only being used to charge a battery rather than propel a vehicle it can be run at its most efficient speed so in theory it is actually uses less energy to propel the vehicle, Do you remember the Vauxhall Ampera? A mate had one as a company car, a biggish car yet would do over 50mpg as the 1400cc engine was only driving a generator and that was over 10 years ago.
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by Mc Tool »

Im pretty sure the diesel electric trains were that way because an electric motor can give max torque at zero revs , which is ideal for getting big heavy trains moving from a standstill , and it does away with the need of a big heavy transmission.
And , yes Andrew your right about regenerative braking capturing energy normally waisted. I think good driving can offset this a bit tho . I figure that as soon as one touches the brakes you have just waisted the energy you just put in to get the car moving fast enough to require that braking . When I know I am going to have to either stop or slow down I lift off the throttle and coast as much as possible rather than wait untill the last minute and then jump on the brakes.
I have had a few taxi rides recently and some drivers are applying throttle to accelerate up to speed and then coasting untill the car needs to be sped up again. Gotta say its a bloody irritating sitting in the passenger seat ( Toyota pious )
My car (Toyota Blade master, basically a Corolla with a 3.5l V6 2GR-fe.... knockin on 300hp ) gets better milage in hill country as it uses the same amount of juice to go up a hill as it does on the flat ( according to the instant fuel consumption display ) but nothing going down the other side of the hill , so I can get up to another 2km/l ( 11.4 up to 13.4 ) . Its a friggin beast :xd: :xd: , talk about torque steer , I love it . 8-) :drive:
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by nemo »

SCP440 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:51 pm it is actually uses less energy to propel the vehicle,
Propelling the vehicle always uses the same energy, it`s how that energy, be it thermal or electrical, is supplied. I understand about running the engine at peak torque speed etc , CVT was supposed to optimise this, but charging a battery cannot be more energy efficient than driving the vehicle directly: whatever energy the battery takes is the energy it`s used propelling the vehicle - plus all the losses I mentioned. I just can`t see the admitedly improved combustion efficiency making up for all the losses, generating then charging then discharging... Not to mention the significant added mass of the vehicle due to the batteries et cetera.
I do understand what you`re saying, I just can`t imagine efficiency overall, from tank to wheels, being better with all the extra complexity?
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Re: Hybrid cars

Post by Mc Tool »

Ah , Im thinkin that it takes X amount of electrical energy to propel a vehicle , this energy is ultimately provided by an ICE. The amount of chemical energy required to provide the electrical energy will vary depending on how efficiently the ICE is running , if its at peak efficiency the losses converting chemical to electrical energy will be less than if the ICE is running off peak ergo you will use more fuel to cover the same distance when off peak but the energy required to actually move the car will be the same your just suffering more losses in the process of chemical to electrical energy conversion.
Back to the diesel electric train , the Deltic engine ( for example ) has a continuous HP rating of 1875 crankshaft HP at 1700rpm , I am assuming that this is peak torque ( couldnt find the figures for torque ). So the engine will be operating at 1700rpm regardless of the speed of the electric motor .....it may well be at zero revs , so by keeping the diesel at peak torque we get peak efficiency. The blurb also states that Max power is 2500 hp at 2000rpm .
It would be interesting to see fuel consumption figures at both the above engine speeds ( they did flash before my eyes as I looked about and now that I want them I cant find them again :roll: ) but Im thinking that whilst max power is higher than the continuous rating the efficiency will be less. The deltic alternator will be able to vary current output whilst maintaining a constant RPM by varying field winding current . Only downside is that the vehicle is now ICE/ electric rather than hybrid as the ICE will not drive the wheels directly any more ........unless you wanna chuck a CVT in there as well thus giving the ability to maintain ICE speed at peak torque. :xd:
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