Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

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PaulCalf
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Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by PaulCalf » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:45 pm

Hi everyone - wanted to get some opinions on a camshaft upgrade i've bought and about to install

I am enjoying learning as much as i can about the cologne engine (and engines in general to be honest) but i have a question I'm hoping you can help with.

So the new camshaft i've bought is supposed to be a 'fast road' profile but when i compare it to my existing cam (on the right of the picture), my existing one looks 'flatter' giving a longer duration - ?

By contrast the new camshaft (the one on the left of the pic ) looks 'sharper' and therefore looks like it will have the valves open shorter than the one.

from the language I am using to describe the different camshafts you'll know i'm a novice when it comes to this stuff - but hopefully you see what I mean - ? I don't understand how the new camshaft will open the valves for longer based on the shape i am seeing. But is there something in the angle of the cam that i don't know about I wonder? The camshaft was made from a blank and the same place i got them did an absolutely lovely job porting my cylinder heads.

Grateful for any advice you might have for me - thanks all !


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andyd
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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by andyd » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:53 am

It's the angle of the lobes that keeps the valves open longer, or duration I have also heard it called. Edd explians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfdgxPpXD9U

What make cam is that? Always wondered what a uprated cam would be like in a 2.8, let us know when fitted :cool:

Had a fast road cam in my XR3i, that went well but the tickover was set at 1100 rpm.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Stroker » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:04 am

Looks are very deceiving with cam profiles. Here's a explanation to do with base circles.https://www.ozvr4.com/threads/camshaft- ... ion.16111/

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by mjcapri » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:08 am

Your new one looks like a high(er) lift profile. You’ll probably loose some torque but gain bhp at high revs.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Bug » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:45 am

Used to get my car serviced by a guy who raced a 3.0S.

His daily hack was a 2.8i with what was known as an 'ambulance cam'. So called because it was developed to put in Transit-based ambulances to improve their performance. It gave virtually the same BHP, but the torque was amazing.
On standard British roads it would leave the 3.0 race car for dead.

So, before you bolt it all together; what are you wanting to achieve?
Track day car? Go ahead with the one you have.
Likewise if you want the bragging rights in the bar. 'Fast Road' tends to be the selling gimmick more than an accurate description of it's achievements in daily life.
But if you want a car that is more fun to drive on the road, and quicker from point to point on anything less than a drag strip, you may want to think about swapping it for a high torque one.

Just my opinion of course.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Major_Tom » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:38 am

Bug wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:45 am

His daily hack was a 2.8i with what was known as an 'ambulance cam'. So called because it was developed to put in Transit-based ambulances to improve their performance. It gave virtually the same BHP, but the torque was amazing.
On standard British roads it would leave the 3.0 race car for dead.
Very interesting my man.
I'm the one that leaves all those shoes in the carriageway.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Bug » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:02 pm

Major_Tom wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:38 am
Bug wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:45 am

His daily hack was a 2.8i with what was known as an 'ambulance cam'. So called because it was developed to put in Transit-based ambulances to improve their performance. It gave virtually the same BHP, but the torque was amazing.
On standard British roads it would leave the 3.0 race car for dead.
Very interesting my man.
Yeah, can't remember his surname. Olly, from AES Engines at East Dereham.
Of course I'm talking 25-30 years ago now.

(Oh and Tom, as an aside, as of next Monday it will be 9 years since I last saw you! Time flies)

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Major_Tom » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:44 pm

Bug wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:02 pm
Major_Tom wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:38 am
Bug wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:45 am

His daily hack was a 2.8i with what was known as an 'ambulance cam'. So called because it was developed to put in Transit-based ambulances to improve their performance. It gave virtually the same BHP, but the torque was amazing.
On standard British roads it would leave the 3.0 race car for dead.
Very interesting my man.
Yeah, can't remember his surname. Olly, from AES Engines at East Dereham.
Of course I'm talking 25-30 years ago now.

(Oh and Tom, as an aside, as of next Monday it will be 9 years since I last saw you! Time flies)
That'll be Olly Sparks. He posts on here sonetimes. A gambler, rake and invert, so they say.

Golly time does indeed fly, are you still in the village near Thetford?
I'm the one that leaves all those shoes in the carriageway.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Bug » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:40 pm

Major_Tom wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:44 pm
Golly time does indeed fly, are you still in the village near Thetford?
Nope. Now in a bungalow in Attleborough. Married 5 years in May.
Youngest lad, Ben, is now an airframes/engines techy in the RAF, at Coningsby on 29 Sqn. Got himself fully qualified to run Typhoon engines. Got his Op Shader medal for serving in the Syrian malarkey. Got his own house in Sleaford too. He was 12 when you last saw him!

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Major_Tom » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:25 pm

Bloody ell... crazy!
I'm the one that leaves all those shoes in the carriageway.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by PaulCalf » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:52 pm

Guys - i am very happy I've managed to faciliate a reunion between Bug and Major Tom - I feel a bit like Cilla Black here

I love the links above - particularly the one from Stroker - talk about looks being deceiving. Sometimes what seems like 'common sense' is anything but! Really helpful to understand the dark arts of camshafts.

To answer Andy's Q - its from CNCHeads up in Manchester - owned/run by Ric Wood. I actually had an email convo with him today in which he basically confirmed the info in Stroker's link (i mean he explained it to me but it was only after i saw the picture in the link that my brain actually 'got it' - i'm a simple man who needs pictures!) - Ric's been brilliant actually- plus the work on the heads done very nicely and in double quick time (around a week - all the other recommended places were quoting around a month to do it.)

re: Bug's Qs - basically what i wanted was a bit more 'oomph' (technical term) by which i guess i mean power (nothing crazy - but i was getting the heads ported/flowed anyway by Ric so I asked him what camshaft would be a nice partner to the new head) - but i take your very good point on torque being the main thing to how fast a car 'feels'.) I don't do track days - just out on the weekends on my own when i can get away from the family for a few precious hours driving 'friskily' shall we say... !

Ric's cams are his unique design made from blanks - and what they do is give more power with no noticeable loss in torque according to him - when i was doing the rounds from cam suppliers I specifically asked about this point as i was aware of it and the legendary 'ambulance cams' too (i think the first time i heard about them was on this very forum).
I mean - who know if i'll find it 'noticeable' - but I'm prepared to take Ric's word on this given his reputation and the level of quality work he did to my heads. Also - i have always thought that i could live with slight loss in torque because I'm happy to drop a gear to keep it in the power band...?!

Who knows eh?! I just hope that I notice something (anything) faster/better about the engine after the work that's going into all of this. I got the block and all the bits properly cleaned as well (oil mud everywhere) and someone said that just having the engine properly cleaned and 'half rebuilt' would give me a performance increase alone, apart from the new heads and cams - fingers crossed! Once we get the engine back in and I've run her in a bit I'll report back with my findings !

All of this started with me seriosly looking at boring/stroking but apparently the siamese exhaust is the ultimate limiter of all this - it's a very hard squeeze on the lemon for not much juice - and I love my engine too much to replace it with anything else (maybe that will be my next project tho with a 2.0 doner chassis - there was a 2.9 cossie engine floating around on ebay a while back which was very tempting...) - after all my research I found that the one reliable way to get the biggest bang for your Cologne buck (according to Tickover who know their onions) was to get it stroked to 3.5ltrs (YES you read that right) by the guys in Car Clinic up north. I actually had a few long convos with them and they were very knowledgeable and helpful. But then again there are cheaper ways of getting a capri up to 200+BHP if thats what you really want (buy a pinto and tune it!), and like i said i love my cologne too much to have it drastically altered/replaced.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Bug » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:52 pm

Well I'm glad you've taken all the input in good faith, and answered it slightly more comprehensively than anyone would imagine you would.

An apology for hijacking the thread. A bit selfish, but the last time I saw Tom was at my wife's funeral. He was a ray of sunshine in a dismal day, as over a hundred people asked me who the gate-crashing goth-looking bloke was. But given his height and somewhat sinister look, he was left to plunder the buffet unhindered. :xd:

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Major_Tom » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:42 pm

Bug wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:52 pm
Well I'm glad you've taken all the input in good faith, and answered it slightly more comprehensively than anyone would imagine you would.

An apology for hijacking the thread. A bit selfish, but the last time I saw Tom was at my wife's funeral. He was a ray of sunshine in a dismal day, as over a hundred people asked me who the gate-crashing goth-looking bloke was. But given his height and somewhat sinister look, he was left to plunder the buffet unhindered. :xd:
😂 thanks for the compliment my friend. Consider dropping in for CRaP for a while perhaps? Otherwise I will be forced to come to you for plundering of your tea as it would be good to see you.
I'm the one that leaves all those shoes in the carriageway.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by PaulCalf » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:25 pm

Not at all Bug! That’s what the forums for isn’t it? To find new friends and stay in touch (and wang on about our beloved capris all day of course) - and I’m sorry for your loss - I’ve also found that having great friends around for those dark days is a life saver.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Stroker » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:30 pm

Major_Tom wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:44 pm
Bug wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:02 pm
Major_Tom wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:38 am


Very interesting my man.
Yeah, can't remember his surname. Olly, from AES Engines at East Dereham.
Of course I'm talking 25-30 years ago now.

(Oh and Tom, as an aside, as of next Monday it will be 9 years since I last saw you! Time flies)
That'll be Olly Sparks. He posts on here sonetimes. A gambler, rake and invert, so they say.

Golly time does indeed fly, are you still in the village near Thetford?
Oliver Wilson is the bloke you mean, raced a 3.0 Capri and his dad Dave raced the 2.8i Capri.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Mc Tool » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:26 am

Made for a capri
IMG_20200124_124258.jpg
you gotta make the most :cheers: :cigar: :burnout: out of your 20's, 30's, and 40's coz when you hit 50 the "engine check" light comes on. :?

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Bug » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:27 am

Major_Tom wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:42 pm
I will be forced to come to you for plundering of your tea as it would be good to see you.
Welcome any time!
Meet the new Mrs Wells. ;)

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by pbar » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:41 pm

PaulCalf wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:52 pm

To answer Andy's Q - its from CNCHeads up in Manchester - owned/run by Ric Wood.
I pass his place sometimes, it's great to see to see his racing Capri's.

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by PaulCalf » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:13 pm

Yep seems like a top bloke and very helpful / generous with his time to explain things. Would love to look around that garage one day if I ever go up north that way. The proof will be in the pudding - Can’t wait to get my foot back on the pedal (after the 1000 mile Run-in!)

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Re: Cologne camshaft comparison side by side - anyone know?

Post by Stroker » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:26 am

PaulCalf wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:52 pm
Guys - i am very happy I've managed to faciliate a reunion between Bug and Major Tom - I feel a bit like Cilla Black here

I love the links above - particularly the one from Stroker - talk about looks being deceiving. Sometimes what seems like 'common sense' is anything but! Really helpful to understand the dark arts of camshafts.

To answer Andy's Q - its from CNCHeads up in Manchester - owned/run by Ric Wood. I actually had an email convo with him today in which he basically confirmed the info in Stroker's link (i mean he explained it to me but it was only after i saw the picture in the link that my brain actually 'got it' - i'm a simple man who needs pictures!) - Ric's been brilliant actually- plus the work on the heads done very nicely and in double quick time (around a week - all the other recommended places were quoting around a month to do it.)

re: Bug's Qs - basically what i wanted was a bit more 'oomph' (technical term) by which i guess i mean power (nothing crazy - but i was getting the heads ported/flowed anyway by Ric so I asked him what camshaft would be a nice partner to the new head) - but i take your very good point on torque being the main thing to how fast a car 'feels'.) I don't do track days - just out on the weekends on my own when i can get away from the family for a few precious hours driving 'friskily' shall we say... !

Ric's cams are his unique design made from blanks - and what they do is give more power with no noticeable loss in torque according to him - when i was doing the rounds from cam suppliers I specifically asked about this point as i was aware of it and the legendary 'ambulance cams' too (i think the first time i heard about them was on this very forum).
I mean - who know if i'll find it 'noticeable' - but I'm prepared to take Ric's word on this given his reputation and the level of quality work he did to my heads. Also - i have always thought that i could live with slight loss in torque because I'm happy to drop a gear to keep it in the power band...?!

Who knows eh?! I just hope that I notice something (anything) faster/better about the engine after the work that's going into all of this. I got the block and all the bits properly cleaned as well (oil mud everywhere) and someone said that just having the engine properly cleaned and 'half rebuilt' would give me a performance increase alone, apart from the new heads and cams - fingers crossed! Once we get the engine back in and I've run her in a bit I'll report back with my findings !

All of this started with me seriosly looking at boring/stroking but apparently the siamese exhaust is the ultimate limiter of all this - it's a very hard squeeze on the lemon for not much juice - and I love my engine too much to replace it with anything else (maybe that will be my next project tho with a 2.0 doner chassis - there was a 2.9 cossie engine floating around on ebay a while back which was very tempting...) - after all my research I found that the one reliable way to get the biggest bang for your Cologne buck (according to Tickover who know their onions) was to get it stroked to 3.5ltrs (YES you read that right) by the guys in Car Clinic up north. I actually had a few long convos with them and they were very knowledgeable and helpful. But then again there are cheaper ways of getting a capri up to 200+BHP if thats what you really want (buy a pinto and tune it!), and like i said i love my cologne too much to have it drastically altered/replaced.
Did you get any figures or info on what your heads flow? Just interested to see how they flow. :)

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