3.0 Ghia - Problems

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PDanher
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Car(s): Ford Capri MK3 3.0 Ghia

3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by PDanher » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:56 pm

Evening all,

I've had my Ford Capri 3.0 Ghia (automatic) for just over a year. It has been stood in a garage since 1994 and was put on the road just over 6 months ago after being somewhat rebuilt (still some welding needs to be done, but most parts under the bonnet have been replaced). I've been using it as a daily driver to get to work and back since it was put back on the road. I'm not mechanically inclined and I rely on our Haynes book and my dad for his knowledge. I've been having a number of issues with it:

- After 20 minutes or so of driving (typically when the car's warm) the fuel starts to drain back from the filter. If I turn the engine off, I can visually see the filter drain of fuel and it struggles to start up. We changed out the mechanical fuel pump for an electrical one - and while it still seems to drain back, it fires up after about 10 seconds of turning the key - whereas with the mechanical pump it wouldn't fire up until we slackened off the pump and fiddled around with it. Even with the electrical pump, if I stop to run an errand after driving for 15+ mins - it struggles to fire / stalls when I put it in gear.

- The temperature gauge shoots up to nearly red after about 20 minutes of driving. We've fitted an electric fan and radiator that kicks in at around 40 deg. Didn't have this issue until about a week ago (coincidentally after my dad damaged some of the fins and we sorted it with something you put into the radiator that plugs the leak). We left the viscous fan on as well.

- Constant ticking sound while driving. As I rev the engine, it gets louder. We've had the heads off and have adjusted the tappets several times to no avail. Old man seems to think it's the speedo cable, which we're waiting on a new one to be delivered. I'm doubtful of that.

- Smells fuel rich while running. Have done the classic screw the air-fuel screw in and then back it off a turn and a half, but it still smells fuel rich. Carb has been off and had all the diaphragms and gaskets replaced.

- When you put it into gear (reverse or drive) the revs drop from 1000 (idle) to 750 and bounce up and down between 500 and 750 as if it's going to stall. It quite often stalls if you leave it in gear while holding the brake. My dad says that this is normal for an old car, but I highly doubt it.

If anyone has encountered these problems before and could shed some light on these issues, that'd be amazing. I've spent countless hours googling and looking up each of these problems. I owned and restored a 1.6 Laser with my old man before getting the 3.0, and I never had any issues like these with it. :banghead:

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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Not_Anumber » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:29 pm

Sadly the 3 litre Essex is the Capri engine that I know least about.
Is the fuel filter original and does this sit between the original mechanical fuel pump and the carb ?
Does the car have a separate fuel return pipe back from the carb to the tank ?

Have you tried driving the car a short distance with the fuel cap removed ? - If the tank vent is blocked this could cause the fall back of fuel, removing the cap works around this (just to prove the cause.)


Not sure if you've tried it already but I would suggest a stuck thermostat is the clear cause of your over heating woes. This would stop water circulating to the radiator where it would be adequately cooled. Just remove the thermostat and try running the car without one in there. You can certainly get by without a thermostat with the weather we are currently having so dont worry if you dont have a replacement immediately to hand. Id suggest you go to a proper seller for the new thermostat ( CapriGear, Niall, Tickover, CCI, Burton etc) as some of the ones sold on Ebay reputedly dont always open at the right temperature.

Mc Tool
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mc Tool » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:37 am

Yeah , I have struck all these problems before , in the end I ( politely ) told him to bugger off and go ruin someone else's day 😂
I have the patience of a saint ........Saint cnuty Mc Fuckoff

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D366Y
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by D366Y » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:05 am

I'd second the idea of the thermostat for the overheating, and I'd check that the coolant is correct and up to level etc. or alternatively check the radiator for damage - a lot of the fins on mine at the edges had gone so had to replace it to keep the heat down

Try this method for setting the carb - tried and tested method and should hopefully get the perfect mix so it doesn't smell/run too rich;

Simply....you adjust the mixture by turning the screw in or out until you find where the engine runs fastest. Adjust the idle control screw to slow it down to 750-950 rpm and then see if you can make it faster by turning the mixture screw. When turning the mixture screw either way lowers the revs, the idle mixture is set perfectly. This works because turning the mixture screw makes the engine more or less efficient. When you are unable to to speed the engine up using the screw, it is at perfect efficiency and therefore is running as best it can be.

The auto dropping revs/stalling is a problem I had for a while; have you checked the ATF (gearbox fluid)? Too much or too little can really mess with them and cause them to do all sorts of funny things - Apparently the gearbox knows it has too much/not enough and does things like that to stop it from damaging itself? Whether that's true or not I don't know but still the easiest thing to check.

The ticking noise - can you upload a video or something so we can hear the sound? Otherwise quite difficult to diagnose

Cheers
Danny

Lord Flasheart
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Car(s): 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Lord Flasheart » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:39 am

All good advice so far, I will just add my experiences to the mix.

With my 3.0 Ghia auto, I had trouble with a weak fuel pump & spark. Replaced with a new mechanical fuel pump from Tickover I think & a new coil & that sorted that out.
There is no need to put an inline fuel filter on, the never had one originally, removed the one that was fitted on mine. You can fit one if you wish but there are directional, make sure its fitted the right way round.

The original cooling system works just fine, as said, make sure the thermostat is good, an original motorcraft one would be the best choice & make sure your viscous fan is operating properly, the water pump also & it is crucial the radiator is in good condition, if you are needing to add rad weld or similar then to be honest it probably needs re coring. My car had sat for 18 months before I bought it, outwardly it seemed fine but it overheated & when I had it repaired, on inspection, the insides of the rad had just crumbled. with everything working properly there is no need for an additional electric fan but its up to you if you do lots of urban rush hour stuff, it wont hurt.

The weber carb for the auto models has an anti stall gizmo, for reference, when mine is properly warm, in neutral the tick over is around 900 rpm, when you put it in gear, this drops down to around 700 but prolonged holding at an island for example can drop to 600 or so but it doesn't stall. As has been said, the carb needs setting up properly & should give you no issues when done.

As for the smell of running rich, mine does his too. even when I have done a 20 mile run, go round the back of the car when its idling, there is no visible clouds of unburt fuel like when the choke is on, but it still smells rich like when the choke is on. Remember, its a 40 year old design with no catalytic converters in the exhaust, its a characteristic of the vehicle.

In summary, if all the original bits for the cooling, ignition leads / plugs etc & fueling are in good working order, the car should be fine in its original set up. If your having to add modern extras then things need to be replaced / renewed.

The best thing I had fitted was a points replacement system, I got mine from here as they were local https://simonbbc.com/ ….. I wanted to keep the original points but at the same time I didn't want to bugger about under the bonnet too often so went for the replacement system, at least you know this will give consistent spark to use as a base to set everything else up properly.

Good luck ;)

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D366Y
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by D366Y » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:57 am

Lord Flasheart wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:39 am

The best thing I had fitted was a points replacement system, I got mine from here as they were local https://simonbbc.com/ ….. I wanted to keep the original points but at the same time I didn't want to bugger about under the bonnet too often so went for the replacement system, at least you know this will give consistent spark to use as a base to set everything else up properly.
I'd second this as well - I forgot I had electronic ignition! Makes life much easier when trying to diagnose problems, knowing there is one less thing to worry about/check

Cheers
Danny

PDanher
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Car(s): Ford Capri MK3 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by PDanher » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:08 pm

Thanks for all the replies people,

It has an electrical ignition, so thankfully no points to deal with. Though I did have issues with the rotor arm sitting too low (causing lumpy running) - but that's now sorted. Coil is also new. Rad weld was the name I was looking for - we added some of that a week or so ago because my dad knocked the radiator when he was tightening up a bolt, damaging one of the fins - which caused a small leak. The leak is now gone.
The weber carb for the auto models has an anti stall gizmo, for reference, when mine is properly warm, in neutral the tick over is around 900 rpm, when you put it in gear, this drops down to around 700 but prolonged holding at an island for example can drop to 600 or so but it doesn't stall. As has been said, the carb needs setting up properly & should give you no issues when done.
At first, this is what it does - but as the car warms up to operating temperature, if I try to hold it in gear at the lights for example - it just judders and stalls. When it does drop to about 600 revs upon initially starting, it sounds very lumpy.

With regards to the overheating, I think we've narrowed the cause of it down to the viscous fan - which now that I think about it I've only started to have this issue since refitting it. While recording a quick video just now I noticed there was some play in it. I think the easiest solution is to just take it off and have it cool via the electric fan we have installed. Hopefully this will solve it. We took out the thermostat and, while it ran a lot cooler, it gradually heated back up to near red on the gauge after about 30 minutes of driving.

The fuel issue still has me stumped. We already tried leaving the cap off and even drilled in an additional breather hole. The electric fuel pump we fitted seems to ensure that it starts up again, albeit it takes a couple sends for it to circulate the fuel once it's drained back. Somewhat annoying.

The ticking sound is worse when you're sat in the car - I also forgot to mention the god awful whining sound which has been there since putting it back on the road. I've checked all the fluids and they appear to be at normal levels.

Regarding the fuel mixture, can someone show me where the mixture screw and the idle screw are? I think we've got the idle screw - which slows / speeds it up. But which is the mixture screw?

I just took a quick video, apologies for the dirt and grime (the path to my workplace is down a backway which is like a desert in this heat):

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D366Y
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Currently full up and no more space but I still want a 2.8...
Location: South Bucks

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by D366Y » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:25 pm

The stalling thing is stumping me - if the gearbox fluid is topped up I can only imagine it must be because the air/fuel ratio is off and is either flooding/starving the engine once hot?

Below is a picture of the mixture screws - hopefully that will help getting it set correctly. I'd set it once it has been properly warmed up and the revs have dropped once the auto-choke has done it's thing

The fact that the rad was damaged may also be the cause of the over-heating - might be worth looking at a replacement now before you cook the engine as it is much cheaper to replace than a rebuild later down the line. I tried to use rad weld a few times, has never helped, just gunked up the rest of the system.

That fan definitely looked loose haha - otherwise I'm struggling to hear the noise let alone diagnose it -not my strong suit I'm afraid!
On the other hand, where did you get that rad from? I'm looking for a new one for mine :)

Cheers
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Lord Flasheart
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Car(s): 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Lord Flasheart » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:04 pm

As you say, that viscous fan looks like its given its best service & would benefit from a new one.

The solid but agricultural nature of the C3 autobox does sap power from the engine. When my engine was rebuilt during the resto, after a period of running in, I took the car to a specialist classic car place to have it set up & tuned using a rolling road, as part of this I got a dyno print out. In standard trim, the 3.0 Essex is quoted as 138bhp, its not unusual when they are run in & set up properly to actually produce nearer 150bhp apparently. Although it had only done few miles at the time, the read out for mine was 118bhp at the back wheels, all down to the sapping nature of the autobox I was told. I was also told it will improve as the engine beds in :)

Even assuming the auto box fluid is a good cherry red colour, not turning brown or looking burnt & the fluid level is correct, it does sap power. One thing I have to ask, does the new radiator that's on it have the oil cooler in the base for the autobox ? You should have two pipes going to & from the autobox to the bottom of the rad to cool the gearbox fluid ?

The aftermarket air filter could also effect the carb settings, it may be time to take it to an old school tuning place with a rolling road to get it set up properly.

Mc Tool
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mc Tool » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:08 pm

I'm starting to sound like a broken record ....have you checked that the carb float is not leaking and filling up with fuel.

With a leaking float the car will

Start well from cold ....not so good starting hot

Will run ok at road speed , but will get progressively richer the slower the revs

Will richen up at idle untill it either stalls or you give it a boot full to clear it (not so easy in an auto at the lights ).

Mucking about with idle mix or timing won't make much difference

And with the engine off, as the float sinks it will pull the float valve open allowing the fuel in the line/filter to run back to the tank quite quickly. My car ,the fuel level was so high the fuel would flow up out of the air corrector jets at idle
I have the patience of a saint ........Saint cnuty Mc Fuckoff

Mr B
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mr B » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:37 pm

Hi mate,

I have a 3 litre Ghia and over the years have encountered the same problems as you, for the fuel pump issue you must careful when installing the pump as it is possible to install it in such a way that the long fuel pump actuator arm misses the actuator cam that sits on the front of the timing gear and wedge's between the cam actuator and the timing cover - crazy as it seems the pump still works but at a very low output, as for the filter draining of fuel I can't see how this would affect the starting up of the car as the carburettor bowl would still full of fuel unless there is some weird vacuum issue going on.
Ticking sound whilst driving could be the Speedo - had this before but as the ticking sound is rising with engine rpm it could be valve clearances, also check exhaust manifold gaskets if these are blowing or the manifold securing bolt's are loose they can make a ticking sound that rises with engine rpm
Stalling issue - make sure the idle mixture jet's are clear these can get gummed up after the car has been standing for a while

Mr B

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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mr B » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:42 am

Did anyone else notice the oil pressure gauge showing zero pressure, from my experience the gauge needle move's even at cranking speed let alone at idle speed or has it been disconnected?

PDanher
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Car(s): Ford Capri MK3 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by PDanher » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:16 am

Hi all,
Mr B wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:42 am
Did anyone else notice the oil pressure gauge showing zero pressure, from my experience the gauge needle move's even at cranking speed let alone at idle speed or has it been disconnected?
Good spot, we haven't got the gauge connected up.
Mr B wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:37 pm
Hi mate,

I have a 3 litre Ghia and over the years have encountered the same problems as you, for the fuel pump issue you must careful when installing the pump as it is possible to install it in such a way that the long fuel pump actuator arm misses the actuator cam that sits on the front of the timing gear and wedge's between the cam actuator and the timing cover - crazy as it seems the pump still works but at a very low output, as for the filter draining of fuel I can't see how this would affect the starting up of the car as the carburettor bowl would still full of fuel unless there is some weird vacuum issue going on.
Ticking sound whilst driving could be the Speedo - had this before but as the ticking sound is rising with engine rpm it could be valve clearances, also check exhaust manifold gaskets if these are blowing or the manifold securing bolt's are loose they can make a ticking sound that rises with engine rpm
Stalling issue - make sure the idle mixture jet's are clear these can get gummed up after the car has been standing for a while

Mr B
I've fitted an electrical pump, so it can't be what you've described. We've had the carb off and replaced all the diaphragms and jets with a kit I bought. As for the ticking sound, I have thought that it might be the speedo. Waiting on that part to come in - so I'll report back as soon as it's fitted.
Mc Tool wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:08 pm
I'm starting to sound like a broken record ....have you checked that the carb float is not leaking and filling up with fuel.

With a leaking float the car will

Start well from cold ....not so good starting hot

Will run ok at road speed , but will get progressively richer the slower the revs

Will richen up at idle untill it either stalls or you give it a boot full to clear it (not so easy in an auto at the lights ).

Mucking about with idle mix or timing won't make much difference

And with the engine off, as the float sinks it will pull the float valve open allowing the fuel in the line/filter to run back to the tank quite quickly. My car ,the fuel level was so high the fuel would flow up out of the air corrector jets at idle
There doesn't appear to be any leakage from the carb.

@D366Y - I bought the radiator off Ebay for around £180. Can't remember the name of the business I got it from off the top of my head.

Mr B
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mr B » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:21 pm

No worries mate, but in my opinion get that oil pressure gauge connected up ASAP I'm not saying that the gauge is the most accurate in the world but it is a good indicator of impending trouble.

Also have you fitted a fuel pressure regulator as too much fuel pressure will overcome the float/needle valve and the carburettor will flood.

Stalling when hot issue: my car had this and I spent ages tracking down the issue which in the end turned out to be a bad (new) condenser/capacitor in the distributor, cheap to replace although getting quality item's these day's is getting more difficult, the alternative is electronic ignition but I personally don't like it as I feel it takes away some of the character of the car - just my opinion

Mr B

PDanher
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Car(s): Ford Capri MK3 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by PDanher » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:47 pm

Found the mixture screws and fiddled with them. Engine isn't running as lumpy anymore and it actually sounds pretty sweet, though the squealing sound is still there - but really faint. Doesn't appear to be overheating anymore now that it's hooked up to the electric radiator again - must have been the dodgy viscous coupling causing it.

@Mr B; it's already got an electric ignition. Oil pressure gauge isn't hooked up yet because the hose broke, need to get a new one. Not sure if it has a fuel pressure regulator, but surely if it was flooding I would see it leaking from the carb?

Mc Tool
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mc Tool » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:21 pm

:banghead: :banghead:
I have the patience of a saint ........Saint cnuty Mc Fuckoff

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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Not_Anumber » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:34 pm

I think he meant flooding the cylinders e.g over rich fuel mix rather than actually visibly flooding out of the sides of the carb.

PDanher
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Car(s): Ford Capri MK3 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by PDanher » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:06 pm

Like I said, I'm not mechanically inclined.

We have had the carb off and changed the diaphragms at some point in the past. The issue of fuel running back didn't start until then, if I recall correctly. How can I tell if the carb float is 'leaking' exactly? And how do I sort it if it is?

Mc Tool
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Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by Mc Tool » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:32 am

:D what happens is the actual bit that floats on top of the fuel in the float chamber in the carb can leak and it gets some fuel inside the float making it less bouyant ,and as a result it don't float so well (or even at all ) and the fuel level in the carb rises and richens up the whole mixture range and also interferes with air correction.
Basically you have to verify the fault and then replace the part.
Brass floats are easy as you can hear the fuel rattling round inside the float,and you may be able to solder the leak.
Plastic floats are harder coz they are a bit of plastic coated foam ,so no rattle and they soak up fuel. I twigged to my float being full of fuel when I stripped the carb and the float just felt heavier than it should have when I picked it up, and after a bit of butchers I could see why . Had me fucked for a while coz , with hindsight, the float would dry out a bit when the car was not in use, so it was hard to start, ran like a Swiss watch as I left home and the same old bag of arseholes when I got back......learnt a lot about tuning pinto's that year :roll:
I have the patience of a saint ........Saint cnuty Mc Fuckoff

PDanher
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Car(s): Ford Capri MK3 3.0 Ghia

Re: 3.0 Ghia - Problems

Post by PDanher » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:19 pm

I get what you mean now. Going to look into that this weekend, cheers.

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