Brake problems not going away

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thanasis
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Brake problems not going away

Postby thanasis » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:03 pm

Hello everyone,

after a long hard fight with the drum self-adjusters (damn those 8" drums) here is the story.

I had terrible brakes for a long time believing that that welded self-adjusting drum/handbrake mechanism wasn't working and it was to blame.
Here's a photo: Image
The lever in the photo moves freely, the handbrake works fine but the feel of the pedal isn't ok, long travel and mediocre to bad braking. The pedal doesn't stiffen up when the handbrake is on making me to believe that the adjuster isn't the problem.

The discs are brand new, the brake pads are fine, the drum shoes are 6 months old but the one of them has some unequal wear due to the situation but is fine. The hoses are new, there are no leaks, no air in the system...

So what is the next step? Am i missing something or not understanding tha drum adjusting system or maybe the master cylinder has a problem and needs new seals? It's the ATE system with a servo but the servo had being changed many many years ago.

Thanks in advance,
Thanasis

Bod9084
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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby Bod9084 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:50 pm

Hi which Capri do you have as they are the same as escorts and cortina most early fords

Bod9084
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 6:43 am
Car(s): I have got a 1981 3000s and I have just got my self
A 1987 2.8i thay are both red
I had my first capri when I was 17" it was a 3000GTXLR
I have had a lot of fast fords vans all ways put bigger engine in
I also have had motor bikes I have a 1200 Suzuki bandit
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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby Bod9084 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:51 pm

Ps I mite have a pair

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby Peter-S » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:55 pm

I'm thinking you have your brake shoes around the wrong way
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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby ollyw » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:42 pm

Your brake shoes are the wrong way round

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thanasis
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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby thanasis » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:49 pm

ollyw wrote:Your brake shoes are the wrong way round


i had that suspision when they changed them in front of me in the garage i go to, but i remember them trying the other way and they wouldn't fit. Are the shoes 100% fitted wrong? It's the 8" drum system on a MK3. Also, sometimes when i go in reverse, the adjuster stays little locked and you can hear it. And there is also a lot of play when i try to move the whole shoe assembly by hand... Because they are wrong way propably?!

I will check for the shoe position and come back to the thread.

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby thanasis » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:50 pm

Bod9084 wrote:Ps I mite have a pair


A pair of adjusters?

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby Peter-S » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:57 pm

thanasis wrote:[[b]Are the shoes 100% fitted wrong


Yes!

They need to stay the same way up but swap one shoe with the other.
Maybe not go back to that garage though :o
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thanasis
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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby thanasis » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:03 pm

Peter-S wrote:
thanasis wrote:[[b]Are the shoes 100% fitted wrong


Yes!

They need to stay the same way up but swap one side with the other.
Maybe not go back to that garage though :o


Yeah, i am looking at the haynes' manual drum photo and it really looks not the right way...
I can do it myself, but i have to also change a rack gaiter and the Prop Shaft Coupling Bush so i will go to the mechanics once again.
I do remember tell him that i don't like the look of it after fitting the shoes... but i wasn't sure. Anyway, i will inform with results after refitting the shoes.

Thank you everyone, once again.

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby thanasis » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:21 am

So, i changed the shoes with one another so that the part with the less surface on the top points to the front of the car. The other side was already ok, it didn't need any action. I did it myself in the end so i could take a look at the other drum as well. I pulled the handbrake 3-4 times and tried reverse so the adjusters would come to their senses...

The brakes are better but the pedal travel is too long. I can even make them lock up if i try hard with pedal to the floor, something that was impossible before the shoe operation. So, how can i make the brake pedal really hard and sensitive to incremental braking? Does the handbrake need adjustment, is the welded adjuster a factor or something else?

Any ideas?

Thank you,

Thanasis.

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby Paul G » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:40 pm

thanasis wrote:
Does the handbrake need adjustment, is the welded adjuster a factor or something else?

Any ideas?

Thank you,

Thanasis.


The adjuster ratchet itself is probably worn out and not holding the adjustment. The mig weld on it is an old trade trick whereby the shoes are clicked out until they are lightly rubbing on the inside of the drum then the adjuster is welded in position to stop it slipping and releasing the shoes out of adjustment.

When you have got a replacement adjuster loosen off the handbrake cable then pump the brakes several times followed by operating the handbrake a few times. This should bring the adjusters out to set the shoes in the right position. Finally re-adjust the handbrake cable to finish off.

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby nigecapri » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:39 pm

Being able to lock the brakes when you could not do before is good. It means increased braking efficiency so you can stop faster. The next step is getting the front to a similar stage, the next step is then getting better tyres so when you have the force to stop the wheels turning you have the grip to stop them skidding = shorter braking distance.

If you have too much pedal travel then adjust the shoes by hand so that the drum will only just fit over the shoes. Try to judge how they are balanced by operating them by hand with the lever when drum is refitted. Test run. but bear in mind that any adjustment means they will need to bed in a bit. Remove the drums to check for shiny high patches on the shoes & sand down as required. This should improve pedal travel & feel.

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby ollyw » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:10 am

Often the pivoted part of the adjuster which has the serrated edge on it is rusted solid which doesn’t help anything. I find placing them in a vice and soaking in wd40 whilst wiggling the join with pliers helps no ends in getting accurate adjustment when fitted.

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thanasis
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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby thanasis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:58 pm

Paul G wrote:The adjuster ratchet itself is probably worn out and not holding the adjustment. The mig weld on it is an old trade trick whereby the shoes are clicked out until they are lightly rubbing on the inside of the drum then the adjuster is welded in position to stop it slipping and releasing the shoes out of adjustment.

When you have got a replacement adjuster loosen off the handbrake cable then pump the brakes several times followed by operating the handbrake a few times. This should bring the adjusters out to set the shoes in the right position. Finally re-adjust the handbrake cable to finish off.


ollyw wrote:Often the pivoted part of the adjuster which has the serrated edge on it is rusted solid which doesn’t help anything. I find placing them in a vice and soaking in wd40 whilst wiggling the join with pliers helps no ends in getting accurate adjustment when fitted.


nigecapri wrote:Being able to lock the brakes when you could not do before is good. It means increased braking efficiency so you can stop faster. The next step is getting the front to a similar stage, the next step is then getting better tyres so when you have the force to stop the wheels turning you have the grip to stop them skidding = shorter braking distance.

If you have too much pedal travel then adjust the shoes by hand so that the drum will only just fit over the shoes. Try to judge how they are balanced by operating them by hand with the lever when drum is refitted. Test run. but bear in mind that any adjustment means they will need to bed in a bit. Remove the drums to check for shiny high patches on the shoes & sand down as required. This should improve pedal travel & feel.


Thank you everyone for the suggestions. The feeling and the braking efficiency is definitely inconsistent but better by the day. New tyres are needed 100%. The drums were refitted so that the shoes are as closer to the drum when they were adjusted by hand.

The adjuster didn't need to be welded at the time. In retrospect, it was a bad decision (not mine). If it was properly cleaned and greased, it would be better. So, is it worth it to un-weld the spot, get the mechanism out and clean it properly or is it a lost effort at this point?

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Re: Brake problems not going away

Postby nigecapri » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:27 pm

It looks like the round splined part is welded. That will make no difference. It is the dog at the end which goes through the shoe that adjusts fit. It is the other end which the cable attaches to that rusts up giving an MOT fail, this needs to be cleaned with WD40 or similar.