Smokey engine

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Arya2.0S
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Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:15 pm

My 2.0 pinto seems to be producing a lot of blue smoke.
Upon starting it for the first time during the day it produces a big blue puff of smoke, but it soon clears and goes away.
However once the engine is up to temperature (or around half way on the temp gauge) it starts to puff out blue smoke while its ticking over, Its not a huge cloud, but its visible.

Theres no smoke however whilst driving or accelerating, or if i rev the engine while its ticking over the smoke goes away.
I must stress there is no blue smoke upon idle when the engine is cold however, apart from the initial puff when you start it first thing like i mentioned.
Sometimes it doesn't make any smoke when you start it, but this is usually only when the car has been left for a very short period of time after being driven previously, if you leave it for any extended period its pretty much a given there will be a sizeable puff of smoke when you start it, but again, it clears very quickly until it gets hot again and you let it idle.

I was hoping this was just due to having oil which was too thin, so i changed from 15w40 to 20w50 but its made little to no difference. We thought that maybe the old oil was breaking down under temperature and thinning out and making its way past the rings so we were hoping a thicker oil would have solved this but alas it has not.

I have changed the old PCV valve for a new one since we thought the old valve (which was fooked) was letting oil past and into the carb and combustion chamber, but this hasn't helped either (unless i was sold a dodgy valve?).

We're pretty sure this is a valve stem seal issue now, because if it was rings it would smoke constantly regardless of temperature or situation and there'd be smoke when i was driving too which there isnt.

As i said we're pretty sure/hoping with all hope this is just a simple case of changing the valve seals, but i wanted to get some opinions here too before i go ahead with buying new seals and arranging to have them fitted.

Oh, and its running very very rich but this is a separate issue but thought it was worth mentioning it just in case.

Thanks in advance for any advice, oh and if i do have to replace the seals can anyone recommend a good brand or are they all pretty much the same?

Cheers.

Paul G
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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Paul G » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:21 pm

Sounds like the valve stem oil seals to me. I'd suggest fitting the "top hat" type that they fitted to the CVH engined Fords. Can be done witout taking the head off if you get the right type of valve spring compressor.

As for the mixture usually you just screw the mixture screw in until the engine slows down and starts running rough then slowly screw it out again until it's smooth again. That should get it roughly right then get it checked on a CO meter.

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:44 pm

Paul G wrote:Sounds like the valve stem oil seals to me. I'd suggest fitting the "top hat" type that they fitted to the CVH engined Fords. Can be done witout taking the head off if you get the right type of valve spring compressor.

As for the mixture usually you just screw the mixture screw in until the engine slows down and starts running rough then slowly screw it out again until it's smooth again. That should get it roughly right then get it checked on a CO meter.


Yeah its looking that way, infact im positive the seals are the issue but i like to be 100% sure before tackling a big and expensive job like this (i understand the seals are cheap to buy, but labor isnt lol)

Top hat type huh? I have the later style head, i think it has "87" stamped on the inside, if that makes any difference? We're planning on doing the job without taking the head off as i dont want to buy another head gasket lol.

I'll have a look and see if i can find some of these "top hat" style seals, thanks for the info!

*edit: Im reading that the top hat style do not fit in a 2.0 pinto?*

Paul G
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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Paul G » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:19 pm

I fitted a set in a 1.6 last week and they went in fine and the 2.0 has the same 8mm diameter valve stems. Does the 2.0 have double valve springs or something, it's been a while since I've done one.

I'm sure I've put them in a 2.0 before but maybe the 205 is different?

The zetec/duratec ones won't fit as the valves are of a much thinner diameter.

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mr B » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:24 pm

Hi mate,

Seen plenty of Pinto engine's with this problem, new valve seals should sort it, engine's create a lot of vacuum at idle and this vacuum pulls oil past the bad seals, hence a puff of blue smoke when you pull away at traffic lights after being at idle for a few second's, bit more work but why not pull the head and check the valve guide's too as well as a general de-coke and maybe some valve lapping, nice job especially with this lovely weather :goodluck:

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mc Tool » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:29 pm

+1 for checking the guides. Just because you cant see the smoke don't mean its not there . Mine uses 500ml every 5000mk's and not a hint .... even had peeps follow me .... they cant see the smoke but they can smell it . In my case I thinks its ring seal as I fulled er up with synthetic oil from new ( rebuild ) and I don't think the rings have "taken " :D
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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mr B » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:11 pm

Hi MC,

So how are you going to fix your issue, can you just put some cheap mineral running-in oil in there to help bed the rings in or is to late for that?

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Peter-S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:19 pm

Arya2.0S wrote:
Paul G wrote:*edit: Im reading that the top hat style do not fit in a 2.0 pinto?*


I have them in my 2.0. It's a 205 block with the later unleaded head although I'm not sure that makes any difference
ImageImageImage

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:21 pm

Thanks for the info guys. Sounds like we've found the problem once and for all.

Which seals should I buy though?

Are the "top hat" ones better or should I just stick to the standard ones you can buy individually from Burton's for a few pence each?

I saw some conflicting information earlier regarding the "top hat" ones. Some places say they are better than the regular ones, others state them as being incompatible so I'm a little confused.

This nice weather is crazy...makes me dread what might be yet to come because usually when it's this nice so early the summer turns out to be shite lol.


*Edit: didn't see the above post before i posted my response. I'll look into getting the top hat ones then. They are more expensive but if they prevent leaking it's worth it. Mines a 205 block with the later head as well*

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:34 pm

This is why I'm confused, they say they are for a pinto, but if you fill in the info to check compatibility it says they don't fit and in the description they only mention engines up to 1800, nothing about 2.0. Also, what's a "cvh" engine?

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/VALVE-STEM-SEAL ... Ciid%253A2

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Peter-S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:36 pm

I've had some standard ones pop off, probably because they were cheap but top hat seals are held down by the springs so won't budge.
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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Paul G » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:46 pm

A CVH engine is the type of engine fitted to Mk3, 4 and 5 Escorts, late model 1.6 and 1.8 Sierras and to XR2 and Mk2 1.4 Fiestas. it is a better design of valve seal as some standard ones can ride up the valve stem and off the guide hence leakage into the cylinder, whereas the CVH ones have a wide base that is held in position by the valve spring.

These are examples of them

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOP-HAT-VALVE ... SwIrNWFEE2

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-1-4-1-6- ... Sw~OdVbD3L

Personally I'd go with the more expensive ones as Victor Reinz are a well known manufacturer and the cheap one, well who knows where they come from.

No they are not listed as being for a pinto but they do work - honestly.

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:04 pm

Paul G wrote:A CVH engine is the type of engine fitted to Mk3, 4 and 5 Escorts, late model 1.6 and 1.8 Sierras and to XR2 and Mk2 1.4 Fiestas. it is a better design of valve seal as some standard ones can ride up the valve stem and off the guide hence leakage into the cylinder, whereas the CVH ones have a wide base that is held in position by the valve spring.

These are examples of them

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOP-HAT-VALVE ... SwIrNWFEE2

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-1-4-1-6- ... Sw~OdVbD3L

Personally I'd go with the more expensive ones as Victor Reinz are a well known manufacturer and the cheap one, well who knows where they come from.

No they are not listed as being for a pinto but they do work - honestly.


Ahh i see, well thank you for that, i love learning things like that.

I'll order a set of those more expensive ones asap so I can finally be rid of this menace that has literally haunted me since i got the car and continues to do so despite changing the whole engine!

The wonderful world of classic car ownership.

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mc Tool » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:14 pm

Mr B wrote:Hi MC,

So how are you going to fix your issue, can you just put some cheap mineral running-in oil in there to help bed the rings in or is to late for that?

I am going to have to suck it and put in a new set of rings and hone the bores . TBH I have dithered to long to get away with a bit of mineral oil ( dubious anyway ) , and I suspect that I may have the odd valve stem seal come adrift as mentioned above . I have a good w/shop withan engine crane and stand , and a good cylinder hone .... hell I even have a spare top end gasket kit soooooo only waiting on me to get motivated....... and I need to get a head fitted with hard valve seats as Im still using a lead substitute , so may as well do the whole job in one go ..... :xd: betcha its still like this in a years time :lol:
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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mr B » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:28 am

Got to be honest here, I'm prepared for the backlash I may get for saying this but I run all my cars on unleaded and I've never had a problem, I don't use any lead substitute in the petrol, I periodically check all the valve lash and touch wood I've had no issue's, I'm not saying removing the lead from petrol is a good thing for our old engine's but from my experience all the hysteria over getting head's converted asap seems to have been blown slightly out of proportion

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mc Tool » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:49 am

Not here man . I have a fully reconed head , new guides seals and valves and without lead substitute the ex valve clearance would go from10-11 thou to 4-5 thou in a thousand miles, which buggered up the idle ( 1st real indication ). It stopped as soon as I started using valvemaster , I then changed to penrite lead substitute and have not needed to adjust the valves for 15,000 miles and counting ...... so there :tongue: .......... :xd: :xd: :lol:
I have the patience of a saint ........Saint cnuty Mc Fuckoff

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Mr B » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:23 am

Hi Mc,

I'm at 40000 miles with no lead substitute used and no issue's so far, the only thing I've had to do is retard the ignition slightly because of pinging at high rpm although the use of super unleaded eliminates the issue but it's so expensive here in the UK, talking of Penrite, I use their 20/60 oil in my cars and it's a great oil for an Essex engine.

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:21 pm

Just thought i'd update everyone on this:

Fitted the new "top hat" CVH seals today (without taking the head off), the old seals had been baked hard and were crumbling away, some of them weren't even seated properly!
Fitted the brand new, better designed ones and both issues have been totally eradicated!
No more big puff of smoke when first starting, and no more smoke coming out the exhaust once everything is up to temp.

I am beyond overjoyed with this result! This problem has plagued me since I've owned the car and even after an engine swap and has been a source of anxiety and embarrassment ever since.

Slowly but surely, this is becoming the car of my dreams.

Oh and a new viscous fan (courtesy of Capri Gear) has eliminated the overheating problems and a slight adjustment to the timing has also seemingly eliminated a minor misfire, engine feels so smooth and ultra responsive now.

All in all a productive days work.

:burnout: :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

Paul G
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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Paul G » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:27 pm

Arya2.0S wrote:Just thought i'd update everyone on this:

Fitted the new "top hat" CVH seals today (without taking the head off), the old seals had been baked hard and were crumbling away, some of them weren't even seated properly!
Fitted the brand new, better designed ones and both issues have been totally eradicated!
No more big puff of smoke when first starting, and no more smoke coming out the exhaust once everything is up to temp.

I am beyond overjoyed with this result! This problem has plagued me since I've owned the car and even after an engine swap and has been a source of anxiety and embarrassment ever since.

Slowly but surely, this is becoming the car of my dreams.

Oh and a new viscous fan (courtesy of Capri Gear) has eliminated the overheating problems and a slight adjustment to the timing has also seemingly eliminated a minor misfire, engine feels so smooth and ultra responsive now.

All in all a productive days work.

:burnout: :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:



Told you they'd work!!!!

Glad it's sorted now enjoy it.

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Re: Smokey engine

Postby Arya2.0S » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:33 pm

Paul G wrote:
Arya2.0S wrote:Just thought i'd update everyone on this:

Fitted the new "top hat" CVH seals today (without taking the head off), the old seals had been baked hard and were crumbling away, some of them weren't even seated properly!
Fitted the brand new, better designed ones and both issues have been totally eradicated!
No more big puff of smoke when first starting, and no more smoke coming out the exhaust once everything is up to temp.

I am beyond overjoyed with this result! This problem has plagued me since I've owned the car and even after an engine swap and has been a source of anxiety and embarrassment ever since.

Slowly but surely, this is becoming the car of my dreams.

Oh and a new viscous fan (courtesy of Capri Gear) has eliminated the overheating problems and a slight adjustment to the timing has also seemingly eliminated a minor misfire, engine feels so smooth and ultra responsive now.

All in all a productive days work.

:burnout: :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:



Told you they'd work!!!!

Glad it's sorted now enjoy it.


Thank you immensely for the suggestion! Seriously i cant explain how happy i am, i wanted to hug and kiss my mechanic earlier and now you for the tip! :kissass:


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