Confusion over wiring for starter motor

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guitarswet
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Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by guitarswet » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:48 am

I fitted my new starter motor this weekend. However despite looking identical to the old one there are only two connectors instead of three:

Old one:

Large red 12V cable straight from battery
yellow / black wire with a push fit connector (like on the top of the coil)
Thicker black lead that has a spade connector on it

The new one has no place to attach the yellow / black wire and the spade connector has been changed to a (better) ring type.

OK so I've connected it up without the black / yellow wire attached to anything. In this configuration the starter turns over beautifully but the car clearly hasn't got a spark and won't start. However it will start if you release the key and the momentum of the starter fires the engine (took me a while to suss this out). So the black / yellow lead clearly controls a spark during cranking and must be connected to something.

Has anyone elese come across this and does anyone have a suggestion as to where the black / yellow lead should go? With the ignition on it gives around 8V (the other black lead goes from ground to +12V when the starter is cranked).

Help urgently needed ! :)

capri_turbo

you've got a sierra one

Post by capri_turbo » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:52 am

you need the 3 terminal one as this is what bypasses the ballast resistor... been there done that...

guitarswet
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That's just great

Post by guitarswet » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:06 am

It's not as if it's a 2 minute job either. Don't suppose you know the correct part number?

capri_turbo

sorry, I don't know the part no.

Post by capri_turbo » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:11 am

but Diggers probably will. Tell the motor factors that it has to be the 3 terminal one... they have obviously assumed that they are all the same for pinto engined cars... I know a few peeps who have had this problem / argument with factors... me included. It is only the solenoid which is different usually so they can be swapped, but some starters have a different case and the solenoids aren't interchangeable...

CaptainJammy

Yep - the trick is ...

Post by CaptainJammy » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:37 am

Know what the old one is:-

pre-engaged (solenoid on the motor) or not (solenoid bolted to the inner wing).
2 or 3 terminals on the pre-engaged types.

Open the box to check before paying for it as this makes life so much easier. I have done this for several items bought at motor factors and even FORD.

CaptainJammy

In the past a sticking pre-engaged starter ...

Post by CaptainJammy » Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:33 pm

has been taken apart and cleaned up by me.

The solenoid is de-soldered from the connectors and you can the get to the hugerelay that engages push and turn. Usually some wet and dry paper cleans it and you put it back together re-soldering the terminals.

If you are not sure what you are doing, just buy a recon one (that is what the all usually are anyway).

guitarswet
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Yes there is still a lot of confusion

Post by guitarswet » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:04 am

Partco (who a brilliant by the way) checked every book and cross reference and came up with the same part number which gets you a two terminal one from a Sierra. So I am scratching my head a little bit at the moment. We are trying one more supplier who has suggested a different part number (AC Delco) so I shall see what turns up.

But you're right - you can be as careful as possible but still end up with an incorrect part that often appears to be correct on first inspection. Try getting a fuel tank sender unit and see what turns up for example!

CaptainJammy

If you have the old starter off ...

Post by CaptainJammy » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:15 am

take it with you - saves an extra journey if there is a surcharge on you returning the old one.

Partco are really good, used them for years, surprising that they have the 2 pin and not 3 pin starter for the Capri though.

capri_turbo

I tend to use Andrew Page

Post by capri_turbo » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:10 pm

they are very good... as are York Motor Factors, but I suppose that won't really help you.

guitarswet
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Third time lucky I got the right one !

Post by guitarswet » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:30 pm

Partco have come up trumps and got the correct one but it wasn't easy as the part listed under Capri in all their catalogues leads you to a two terminal type. So if you need a new starter I suggest that you take the old one with you and explain clearly about the terminal configuration and get them to check before ordering!

CaptainJammy

Seems that there is too much reliance ...

Post by CaptainJammy » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:39 pm

on what the computer/book says. Sometimes the book is incorrect and observational engineering is the best way to do things. Like the 2 different oil pressure pipe connections for a 3 litre Essex, YES THERE IS. And Haynes Comic tells you nothing on the Capri 2.8i, you have to get the Granada Mk 2 manual for that.

Well done, you got the right part at last so you can start and drive your motor.

Apples24
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Apples24 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:09 pm

Surely that’s just a extra wire from cranking terminal to the coil

So just join the spare wire to the other one so both go to same terminal

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stevemarl
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by stevemarl » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:53 pm

If you just join the 2 wires, won`t you get problems in normal running, as the coil voltage will be reduced by the starter solenoid which will now be in parallel with it? Which is why they are separate.
Also, the post was 17 years ago, so hopefully they got it sorted.

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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Mc Tool » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:52 am

Yeah , he's probly worn out another starter since then 😁
Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

Apples24
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Apples24 » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:25 pm

Sorry I’m replying as have same issue found the loose wire with no where to plug in and car starts on release of key

Bug
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Bug » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:55 pm

Apples24 wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:25 pm
Sorry I’m replying as have same issue found the loose wire with no where to plug in and car starts on release of key
May I suggest then that you should change your starter for one with the correct 3 terminals, as per the resolution the OP arrived at?

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Major_Tom
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Major_Tom » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:47 pm

stevemarl wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:53 pm
Also, the post was 17 years ago, so hopefully they got it sorted.
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Yes I will soon run out of popular culture images about time travel at this rate!
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Major_Tom
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Major_Tom » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:49 pm

Bug wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:55 pm
Apples24 wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:25 pm
Sorry I’m replying as have same issue found the loose wire with no where to plug in and car starts on release of key
May I suggest then that you should change your starter for one with the correct 3 terminals, as per the resolution the OP arrived at?
Goes to the trouble of resurrecting this nearly two decades old thread and doesn't even read what the solution was :lol:
I'm the one that leaves all those shoes in the carriageway.

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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by Mc Tool » Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:31 am

I dont see why you cant stick both wires on the same terminal . When you energise the solenoid by switching key to start position you would also be sending 12v to the coil , as per normal , when key is returned to run position the 12v to the coil is stopped ( along with solenoid ) and the coil gets its ballast supply as per normal. You might not get the whole batt voltage while starting as the solenoid is pretty greedy but normal running the coil is fed by the ballast wire via the ignition switch . 🤔.....🙂🙂
Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

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stevemarl
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Re: Confusion over wiring for starter motor

Post by stevemarl » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:22 am

Because, as I said, if you join the wires together, the solenoid willl be permanently in parallel with the coil thus their combined resistance will give a low V on coil when it`s fed via the ballast resistor (potential divider) There`s probably not enough current through the ballast R to actually operate the solenoid, but who knows? They did put 3 terminals for a reason

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Last edited by stevemarl on Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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