What is it with oil

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Mc Tool
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What is it with oil

Post by Mc Tool » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:25 am

I see on various websites that the vehicles involved use different oil grades . On another post here it is mentioned that ford would void a warranty if anything other than 10 w40 is used. My toyota has a whole page in the book dedicated to oil specs . It does of course say to only use toyota olis ( toyota dont make oil .....so who really knows what it is ) but if you dont feel like paying double .........and it goes on to say that when its cold 0w40 is ok ,and 5w40 is ok too, either if its a bit warmer or you dont have any 0w40, and when its really warm you could use 10w40 .....or 0w40 or 5w40 ,and when its hot you can use 20 w40 or 0, 5,or 10w40, so basically any shit will do . Soooo, what, I asks is the diff ? An engine has pistons and rings , plain bearings , and chains ( maybe ) and an oil pump . I understand different engines have different clearance specs and they spec different oils . There are not a lot of fundimental differences between old and new engines . When you buy a new car you get all the specs for oils ,but when you do that engine up, with new different manufacturer bearings and piston/rings, and the clearances the engine machine shop saw fit to do ......surely all the manufacturers oil specs go out the window .
If the ole pinto engine munches cams its probly got more to do with design , and that particular valve gear set up has never been great . If you have a butchers at the set up from the end of the cam ....notice that as the nose of the exhaust cam approaches the pad on the follower the point of contact ( just as it starts to lift the valve ) is much closer to the pivot ball than at full lift . This means the actual rocker ratio is more like 2:1 .....at max load ,as the valve is accelerated open ........lot of pressure , lot of heat . Its going to need good oil ,and I know there are lots of opinions , and you sorta gotta break them down and basically you get a lot of success stories on varying budgets . So do pinto cams wear because of bad oil .....nah , I think that the design is sailing so close to the wind that any shortcomming will bring it down . So is getting oil to the cam faster upon start up the answer.......sure cant hurt ,so why not run a 5w zinc oil . Oil pumps are pretty much positive displacement so it wont matter wether its pumping 0 w or 90w it will pump the same amount .... and get there at the same time , so we are relying on residual oil to do initial lube and that makes a thicker oil a better bet . Lot of motorbike engines have a sohc and rockers but the bikes have the rockers above the camshaft and the tips of the lobes dip into an oil bath .....so instant lube on start up, and given a suitable quality oil ( they run pretty hot normally ) they dont give trouble .
I am at an advantage here as I am just about to get my 3.9 block and crank machined to with a bit of research I can spec my own clearances ( the camshaft grinder will also play ball with the journal sizes ) ,which are a bit different to factory specs.......gotta go cook tea .......T bone steak wedges and beer
To be cont
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Re: What is it with oil

Post by mjcapri » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:10 am

I was thinking about this the other day actually. The Focus and the two Fiestas were all built within three years of each other (give or take) and all take a different grade of oil. The Focus takes a (pricey!) 0W-40, the ST200 takes 5W-30 and the MK8 takes 5W-20. Fortunately the ST200 is fine on 5W-20 which simplifies things a bit but the other two don’t have a second choice spec. Also the MK8 takes a ridiculous 6.1 litres of oil despite being a 1.5l 3 cylinder....

With modern engines you’ve got very high temperatures to deal with, snazzy materials and very tight tolerances but as you say the latter potentially go out of the window when you rebuild them. It’s quite an interesting subject and one that attracts conflicting opinions!

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Peter-S » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:57 pm

I've seen Pauls 10/40 post a few times. I've always used 20/50 but maybe I'm a fool! I figure 20/50 is fine unless you have severe cold weather regularly but we don't.
Out of interest I looked in an old Haynes today and for the Capril II and all it says, as far as I can see, is use Castrol GTX. Back in the day I seem to recall this was always 20/50.
I have a Sierra manual as well since I have a 205 sierra engine in the 2.0 Capri and the recommendation there is 10/30 to 20/50. So make up your own mind! I don't know when the Ford 10/40 edict was out but maybe it applied more to earlier pintos rather than the later 165 and 205. Having said that I looked on Castrol's website at classic oils for pre 80's cars and they suggest 20/50 (unless you are going back to 50s vehicles) so there seems to be conflicting advice.
Maybe in a newly rebuilt engine 10/40 might be the best option but a lot of pintos have been around a bit now, mine included, so I will stick with 20/50 - it's not advice just a statement!
I know the stuff that goes in my daily Mazda, much like the Toyota before it, seems like water compared to 'real' oil but I let the garage deal with that one.
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Re: What is it with oil

Post by D366Y » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:08 pm

I think part of it will be personal opinion surely?
One 'specialist' might say only use 20/50, another may say only 10/40 and the last will tell you to leave him alone and put WD40 in it for all he cares - I would imagine if you are an 'expert - however that is defined - you would still end up disagreeing with another expert about what oil to put in certain cars
A wise man once said... "you can never have too many capris - buy another" :beer:

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Mc Tool » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:21 pm

I think it goes back to the success stories I refered to in my 1st post. Joe has always used 10w40 ,his pinto has ran well and the cam now has 120,000kms on it ......there fore 10w40 must be the right oil . Pete has always used 20w50 and his pinto engine also has given good longevity ......so surely 20w50 is the oil to use . If a 5w oil is thinner when cold (it is ) and modern oils being better , I cant see why you wouldnt use a 5w oil , easier on the oil pump drive ,might spray out of the spray bar better .
Dunno about these anti drain back valves in oil filters either ......my crappy old caldina has its oil filter at about 45deg with the open end down , it has said valves but if I leave the engine for a couple of mins I can unscrew that filter without a drop of oil.....most times .....so I dont think they are all that reliable.
Oil pressure relief valves .....gotta have them but why do they dump the relief oil ( the stuff that flows thru the relief valve ) back into the pump inlet ? why not plumb it up to the head where it could be tipped ( not squirted ) along the cam . If nothing else it would contribute to cooling.
My quad bike is full of rolling element bearings so there is no real oil pressure to speak of . Oil is supplied to main and big end , and to all 6 bearings in the trans. The engines are notorious for overheating ( working hard with little air flow over motor due to low road speed ) so I takes a T off the oil feed as it comes out of the filter housing ( doesnt have a relief valve ) , thru a small cooler and dump it in the head.....worked a treat , now when I stop to spot a trout I dont get a cloud of oil smoke wafting up from the engine AND now that the whole thing runs cooler it doesnt weep oil from the cylinder and head gaskets. I used to park in the river with the engine sump in the water when things go a bit to hot. Having only one leg the quad is a godsend when it comes to getting round the riverbed , and I pretty much have to fish off the quad so I have a bit of camo net I wrap round the whole thing , that way I find a fishy spot ,park up , wrap up ( quad is bright red ) , and fish away . Trout aint all that big , like average 3-4 lbs, there are plenty of them but they are wary as the river is used a lot ,weekends mostly , for kids swimming and playing .
Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by mjcapri » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:53 am

D366Y wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:08 pm
I think part of it will be personal opinion surely?
One 'specialist' might say only use 20/50, another may say only 10/40 and the last will tell you to leave him alone and put WD40 in it for all he cares - I would imagine if you are an 'expert - however that is defined - you would still end up disagreeing with another expert about what oil to put in certain cars
Yes you’re right there although it seems more prevalent with older cars; I’ve never had anybody tell me to use 10W-40 in the Focus for example. My ‘advice’ is stick to the manufacturer specs, use a decent quality oil and change the stuff regularly. You can’t really go wrong that way.

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Vermilion » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:09 am

I used to run 5-w50 Mobil like 20 years. Withouth no problems. Quite a great oil since it has ZZDP that every older engne needs.
https://cdn.autodoc.de/uploads/360_phot ... review.jpg
I changed to Castrol Edge Super Car (10w-60) since I had oil breathing problems.
https://cdn.autodoc.de/uploads/360_phot ... review.jpg

If you ask me starting value of 20- is too high for oil unless it is +25 degrees when starting car.
value of 5 and 10 are about suitable. I would go for oil that have starting value of 5 and ending value of 40 to 60.
Also ZDDP contect and certificate to work with ethol would be good (rating GF-6A)

But there is no oil with those. Needed to add some additive to rise ZDDP content.
https://www.redlineoil.com/content/imag ... e_464.jpeg

Older engine are suggest to run with oil that has atleast 1000ppm ZDDP.
That includes all Cologne/Essex/Pinto/OHC engines.

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Mc Tool » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:54 pm

The thing you need to remember that times have changed and there is often a better modern alternative. ie yamaha , in the 70's speced 10w40 oil for the gear box on its 2 strokes ......who knows why , maybe they had a few thousand liters all branded up , but anyway there is (and was ) better stuff around now , but do you think I could get them stubborn old dicks to see , they kept blindly refering to a 40-50year old manual and chanting on about the book ......Willie Hunts .🤯
Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Mc Tool » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:27 pm

Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Vermilion » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:57 am

Mc Tool wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:54 pm
The thing you need to remember that times have changed and there is often a better modern alternative. ie yamaha , in the 70's speced 10w40 oil for the gear box on its 2 strokes ......who knows why , maybe they had a few thousand liters all branded up , but anyway there is (and was ) better stuff around now , but do you think I could get them stubborn old dicks to see , they kept blindly refering to a 40-50year old manual and chanting on about the book ......Willie Hunts .🤯
If you mean that there is better solution for ZDDP, thats not true at the moment. Flat tapped camshafts need that. Unless you want to destroy your camshaft in half the time. The reason they removed ZDDP was all about enviromental problems and new catalytist converters die fast if you have lots of ZDDP. So all new cars are meant to run withouth ZDDP and four-valve engines don't have that kind of loads to cam and doesn't need so high pressure resistance on cams. There is better additive or ZDDP but it costs 20-times more and really expensive racing oils have only that additive.

Would you buy two of these to get engine oil for 2.8 V6?
https://www.tribodyn-nordic.com/en/trib ... 5-p-6.html
And change it after 8.000 miles/ 2 years?

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Mc Tool » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 am

Nah 🙂,I meant that there are better oils available now than there was in the early 70's and that while the speced oil is up to the task a modern alternative may be better , like with the yamaha ....why would you use an engine oil in a gear box when you can easily buy oil designed specifically for 2 stroke motorcycle gear boxes........just coz a 40 year old manual sez to ? .......I guess you can if you want,and , if your a rivet counter I could understand 🙂🙂
And Im with you 100% on the zinc and flat tappet cams . Im trying to find a roller cam for my Rover V8 but it looks like I would have to get one custom made as no one makes blanks with enough meat on the lobes ......,apparently 🙄🙄
Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Paul G » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:28 am

Im trying to find a roller cam for my Rover V8 but it looks like I would have to get one custom made as no one makes blanks with enough meat on the lobes ......,apparently 🙄🙄
[/quote]

These are one of the leading RV8 engine specialists in the UK, bet they will help you with a fiery cam.

http://www.v8engines.com/

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Re: What is it with oil

Post by stevemarl » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:58 am

By a flat topped cam follower, I assume this means where the cam bears directly on a flat surface, so it`s a wiping, sliding high pressure contact as opposed to a rolling contact? So this would class as a flat topped follower? (face of cam isn`t marked, it`s reflections and oil.)
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Re: What is it with oil

Post by Mc Tool » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:03 pm

Yes , but being a 4 valve engine the load on the cams/followers is a lot less. Given decent oil and changes that cam will still look like that when the rest of the motor is worn out . Cutting out the rocker and maybe push rod too removes a fair bit of reciprocating mass also making life easier for the valve train🙂
Id rather have a bottle in front of me :beer: than a frontal lobotomy 🤯

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