Future Classics

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Re: Future Classics

Post by pbar » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:44 am

Caprifan Rob wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:13 pm
I'm really not bothered about the value of my Capri. I just bought it to have fun in. I'd like to think I'll be able to drive it for many years to come and have no plans to sell it.

It's great to see things like that being written. Well said Rob :)

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Re: Future Classics

Post by D366Y » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:45 am

stevemarl wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:24 am
Andrew 2.8i wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:13 pm
Is it actually better for the environment to drive an older, slightly less green car that has already had energy and earth metals used up during it's manufacture? It s
That`s absolutely true, there were arguments against the scrappage scheme of 20?? for that exact reason. The story was that it used more energy (oil) to make a car than that car would ever consume as fuel in its lifetime. The greens were suggesting schemes to encourage longer usage of cars instead as this would benefit the environment and also generate new industries refurbishing and repairing, thus creating jobs too. But no, they legislate to make this years cars 5% more efficient - then sell 6% more of them! They`ve just been shuffling numbers around for years whilst nothing changes.
I`m neuther a green or an environmentalist by the way, I just think the whole way it`s all been handled (scrappage etc) is laughably ha`penny and cake.
I actually read about this a while ago so have shamelessly lifted this from another random article I was reading;

A recent study of car emissions in China estimates emissions for cars with internal combustion engines in this phase [manufacture] to be about 10.5 tonnes of carbon dioxide (tCO₂) per car, compared to emissions for an electric car of about 13 tonnes (including the electric car battery manufacturing).

Emissions from the manufacturing of a lithium-nickel-manganese-cobalt-oxide battery alone were estimated to be 3.2 tonnes. If the vehicle life is assumed to be 150,000 kilometres, emissions from the manufacturing phase of an electric car are higher than for fossil-fuelled cars. But for complete life cycle emissions, the study shows that EV emissions are 18% lower than fossil-fuelled cars.


But it perfectly demonstrates the point that modern 'green' cars still give out a massive footprint just making them - our old cars will have had a much smaller carbon footprint in the manufacturing process as well as there is much less gubbins in the cars of old compared to all the crap in them now

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Andrew 2.8i » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:30 pm

D366Y wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:45 am
But for complete life cycle emissions, the study shows that EV emissions are 18% lower than fossil-fuelled cars.[/color]
Those figures make interesting reading.
So, over the life of the vehicle the EV is better for the environment. That's fair enough, but that is a comparison of a new fossil fuel vehicle and an electric vehicle. With our cars, those manufacturing emissions have already had the impact on the environment, we can't do anything about those. Take that out of the equation and running an old car must be more environmentally friendly than having a new car manufactured, whether powered by fossil fuel or electricity.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Caprifan Rob » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:11 pm

Andrew 2.8i wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:13 pm
Anyway, the heat is off the internal combustion engine for the moment as George Monbiot has turned his attention to the cows! :lol:

Andrew.
He may be on to something, re the last sentence, its farmers to blame for all this, we're not as bad as we're made out :)

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Last edited by Caprifan Rob on Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Jasonmarie » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:13 pm

Hope you guys are doing vegan month in January to save the planet and them sheep in wales :cool:
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Re: Future Classics

Post by Peter-S » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm

Andrew 2.8i wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:30 pm
D366Y wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:45 am
But for complete life cycle emissions, the study shows that EV emissions are 18% lower than fossil-fuelled cars.[/color]
Those figures make interesting reading.
So, over the life of the vehicle the EV is better for the environment. That's fair enough, but that is a comparison of a new fossil fuel vehicle and an electric vehicle. With our cars, those manufacturing emissions have already had the impact on the environment, we can't do anything about those. Take that out of the equation and running an old car must be more environmentally friendly than having a new car manufactured, whether powered by fossil fuel or electricity.

Andrew.
Just an idle thought.
Back when I was young (so quite a while ago) if you were buying a s/h family car and it was getting near, say, 100k mileage you would be a bit wary as the engine may be nearing the end of economic life especially if not looked after. Of course in those days you could easily pick up a re-con unit relatively cheaply and do a diy swap. Anyway, to the 'thought' - are there any figures for the likely mileage a battery pack will last in an electric car and if it fails how much to put new batteries in. Does anyone know without me trawling the web?
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Re: Future Classics

Post by Caprifan Rob » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:35 pm

Jasonmarie wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:13 pm
Hope you guys are doing vegan month in January to save the planet and them sheep in wales :cool:
It's ok Jason, the sheep only eat vegan grass :wave:

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Andrew 2.8i » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:41 pm

Peter-S wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm
are there any figures for the likely mileage a battery pack will last in an electric car and if it fails how much to put new batteries in. Does anyone know without me trawling the web?
I've done the hard work for you Peter!
Apparently, the lifespan is likely to be around 8 years and 100,000.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Caprifan Rob » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:45 pm

Peter-S wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm
Andrew 2.8i wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:30 pm
D366Y wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:45 am
But for complete life cycle emissions, the study shows that EV emissions are 18% lower than fossil-fuelled cars.[/color]
Those figures make interesting reading.
So, over the life of the vehicle the EV is better for the environment. That's fair enough, but that is a comparison of a new fossil fuel vehicle and an electric vehicle. With our cars, those manufacturing emissions have already had the impact on the environment, we can't do anything about those. Take that out of the equation and running an old car must be more environmentally friendly than having a new car manufactured, whether powered by fossil fuel or electricity.

Andrew.
Just an idle thought.
Back when I was young (so quite a while ago) if you were buying a s/h family car and it was getting near, say, 100k mileage you would be a bit wary as the engine may be nearing the end of economic life especially if not looked after. Of course in those days you could easily pick up a re-con unit relatively cheaply and do a diy swap. Anyway, to the 'thought' - are there any figures for the likely mileage a battery pack will last in an electric car and if it fails how much to put new batteries in. Does anyone know without me trawling the web?
I know a Nissan Leaf battery is about £5000 to replace Peter, not exactly economically viable when the car itself can be bought for £11000 at 3 years old.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Andrew 2.8i » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:57 pm

Jasonmarie wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:13 pm
Hope you guys are doing vegan month in January to save the planet and them sheep in wales :cool:
If you're not supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat? :headscratch: :lol:

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Andrew 2.8i » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:03 pm

Caprifan Rob wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:11 pm
He may be on to something, re the last sentence, its farmers to blame for all this
Isn't it great how environmental campaigners are so dedicated and committed to the cause of reducing emissions that they jet all over the world to spread their message.....

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Peter-S » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:21 pm

Andrew 2.8i wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:41 pm
Peter-S wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm
are there any figures for the likely mileage a battery pack will last in an electric car and if it fails how much to put new batteries in. Does anyone know without me trawling the web?
I've done the hard work for you Peter!
Apparently, the lifespan is likely to be around 8 years and 100,000.

Andrew.
Thanks Andrew!

So a new electric car is not cheaper to buy, probably is not better with emissions taking production in to account and judging by the cost of a battery that Rob mentions is potentially going to be scrapped in 10 years.
On the flip side my Aunt has just agreed to buy a 10 year old Ford fusion with 55,000 on the clock for about £2,500 which should keep going for years yet.

I for one won't be rushing to switch to electric!
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Re: Future Classics

Post by stevemarl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:27 pm

I thought the batteries were leased, or has that now changed? There must be some kind of deal, as the vehicle will far outlast the batteries, which as said, will be hugely expensive - especially for the second hand (car) market. They may give N miles when new, but by trhe time they reach `end of life` (whatever that may be) they will only be operating at a percentage of that figure.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Major_Tom » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:34 pm

Its not just cars and meat is it? Lets not beat around the bush, there are too many of us buying things we dont need or want. We live in an unsustainable system of avarice and greed and reward and distraction. Without the taxation of said items, we wont have an economy. Without the "you deserve it" awards of makeup and shoes and goods that come from all over the world, we will start to question why we work hard for 60 years until we're old and in decline.

And we keep crapping out kids into the same cycle, 8 billion special little miracles now.. the vast majority all consuming and buying and throwing away manufactured goods brought in from all over the world.. and so on.

So all this electric car stuff, all of what we are talking about, is, to me, a bit like marching down to the boiler room of Titanic with a thimble "I'll save the ship!"

All we are doing is buying the new toy and making somebody else rich whilst telling ourselves it'll be ok. Theyll be alright, the super rich we are so graciously supporting will live out whats coming in the habitable areas of the world.

Catch 22, bring peoples attention to the foibles of consumerist society, society collapses, plebs cant eat, plebs fight, plebs die. Blindly march on, world heats up, plebs fight, plebs die.

Oh and dont forget the punchline: 8+ billion. If Britain disappeared from the planet tomorrow, wont change a thing. It is a thimble in the boiler room.
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Re: Future Classics

Post by Andrew 2.8i » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:43 pm

stevemarl wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:27 pm
They may give N miles when new, but by trhe time they reach `end of life` (whatever that may be) they will only be operating at a percentage of that figure.
Good point.
In the case of the Tesla Model S, it's apparently 90% after 5 years of use. If true. I have to concede that's fairly impressive.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by stevemarl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:18 pm

Major_Tom wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:34 pm
Theyll be alright, the super rich we are so graciously supporting will live out whats coming in the habitable areas of the world.
Everything you said Tom is absolutely correct. Without a word of a lie that is the most succinct analysis of the hows and whys of our ultimate demise. A thimble to save the ship is just so spot-on As things stand I don`t see a way out, which TBH, I am powerless to affect this scenario so I just try to make the most of what I have and not get depressed about it. As a coward, I`m glad that at 63 I will very likely be dead before the western world collapses, which everyone I know sees as inevitable now. How sad is it though, that I see my impending* death as a `narrow escape`: what will likely follow it would be worse?
I would take issue though with the rich (i.e.Americans ) finding a safe haven: they will as now, still need large numbers of proles to service their needs, take their garbage, provide food, (who knows - maybe more `directly` than now?) Who`s going to work the power stations, water plants: who`s going to provide their health services, wipe their white flabby arses when they become ga-ga? No, I think you need a large critical mass of proletariat to sustain a Jay Z: they will ultimately perish with the rest, every cloud...

* when I say impending I mean I`ve come to accept that I will, one day, die. Most likely.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by stevemarl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 pm

Andrew 2.8i wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:43 pm
In the case of the Tesla Model S, it's apparently 90% after 5 years of use. If true. I have to concede that's fairly impressive.
Yep, that is impressive. Although still it will be a critical factor in the `economically viable` life expectancy of a car, as it will become an issue right at the point where the cars value would be sinking anyway, there`ll be no 20 year old Teslas. Which again defeats the object. And, I remember in `81ish just before the Metro was launched, there was a press release, RAC allegedly tested a prototype which achieved 80+ mpg. But in the real world these figures should often be viewed with suspicion?
Must fid out more about how Lithium is produced as I`ve no idea where it comes from.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by stevemarl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:07 pm

From Wikipedia:
As of 2015, most of the world's lithium production is in South America, where lithium-containing brine is extracted from underground pools and concentrated by solar evaporation. The standard extraction technique is to evaporate water from brine. Each batch takes from 18 to 24 months.[89]

Please God - let there be huge reserves in Mexico :lol: :lol: :lol: l

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Major_Tom » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:11 pm

stevemarl wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:18 pm
Major_Tom wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:34 pm
Theyll be alright, the super rich we are so graciously supporting will live out whats coming in the habitable areas of the world.
Everything you said Tom is absolutely correct. Without a word of a lie that is the most succinct analysis of the hows and whys of our ultimate demise. A thimble to save the ship is just so spot-on As things stand I don`t see a way out, which TBH, I am powerless to affect this scenario so I just try to make the most of what I have and not get depressed about it. As a coward, I`m glad that at 63 I will very likely be dead before the western world collapses, which everyone I know sees as inevitable now. How sad is it though, that I see my impending* death as a `narrow escape`: what will likely follow it would be worse?
I would take issue though with the rich (i.e.Americans ) finding a safe haven: they will as now, still need large numbers of proles to service their needs, take their garbage, provide food, (who knows - maybe more `directly` than now?) Who`s going to work the power stations, water plants: who`s going to provide their health services, wipe their white flabby arses when they become ga-ga? No, I think you need a large critical mass of proletariat to sustain a Jay Z: they will ultimately perish with the rest, every cloud...

* when I say impending I mean I`ve come to accept that I will, one day, die. Most likely.
Yes I agree, I try to live conscientiously... try not to buy new, try and spread the sense we are talking about.... the biggest irony as you say us that they need us, like the hammocks in a Cold War bunker for the continuation of government, so we do have power, but we're kept divided and unable to unite. Besides turning things around will cost lives at this stage for the reasons I mentioned above.

And as you rightly say, we try to enjoy what we've got, enjoy our time. On that note, I recommend buying January's copy of Viz, it is a particularly funny edition, much needed for these troubling times!
My car isn't stupid.... it's MENTAL.

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Re: Future Classics

Post by Jasonmarie » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:13 pm

Christ this post has been busy , first glad the sheep are ok Rob and andrew will bring you a vegan sausage roll in May :lol:
What a great question peter as you must have read my mind . My sons girlfriend is on the look out for a car and I was looking at electric toyota prius second hand but was wondering how long the battery’s lasted . Yes your right she can get a Fiesta with 60k miles on it then a Prius with 200k miles on .

Goblin works did a EV car tonight what was a little 500 Fiat it cost them over £40k to do . :lol:

Save the cow week next week :beer:
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