RS2800 Prototype

[Steve Saxty]

Did I dream it or were there more Mk3 3.0 Ghia's made / sold than 3.0 S's ?

Could be Rioja fuelled beffuddleness

The Ghia was always outsold by the S by virtue of the 1.6S. Of the 3litres I think that Mark III product was 50/50 Ghia/S though... I asked Rod Mansfield a few months ago why they didn't do an Injection auto as it was 75% of Ghia V6 mix and he said, "never thought about it really."

[Steve Saxty]

I do indeed have your book Steve, the posh version at that too …… though sadly I have had precious little time to get very far into it, it will however not be an ornament, I will get to it properly one of these days

I have heard too often that people get it, wonder why it costs 45 quid until they receive it. Then they find it's about three times bigger than they expected and half give up for a few weeks. It's honestly worth the time to read! - said the man who took two years to do it.

[Lord Flasheart]

Knowing how much effort went into the book & the subject matter being on my wavelength, its one of those books I need to take my time to read & absorb it properly, in stages of course …. even I cant eat an elephant in one sitting

I'm confident I will read it quicker than it took to write it

[Daz-RSK]

I think as Steve says it's the colour combos both externally but more internally and the solidity of the car. Compared to the MK1 'E' I just think it looks and feels a better product and of its time more contemporary. Its all subjective I suppose.

On the subject of strip lights do the MK1 Escort and MK1 Capri constitute strip lighting?

I also think car development does move on at a more incredible rate then in the 60's 70's and 80's. If you look at a 2005 Fiesta compared to today, to me they are night and day. Same as a 2004 Focus compare the Mk1 face-lift focus compared to today's models, I believe the same if not more advancement is prevelent today. The problem with todays cars is designers have to fight regulation and more competitive markets, do you share platforms or make global cars?

Oh definitely, the 3.0 Ghia Mk2 Capri moved the the vehicle along for sure. In February 1974, if you bought a 3.0 Ghia, not only was it a sporty creature, it was quite comfortable for its day. The colours do make that evolution. But as Steve most likely would point out as well, it's the whole package.

The boot carpet in a Ghia, with those lush seats, the grab handle on the dashboard. I mean, what model signified the trim by an extra handle on the dashboard ? The Capri ran alongside the Cortina, the vehicle it was based on. Not that it had the same underpinnings - but it evolved out of the Cortina. But there were periods of time - 1974/75/76 period being one - that the Capri leapt way ahead of the Cortina in terms of just pure comfort.

The Mk1 Escort and Mk1 pre-facelift Capri did have strip lighting. But those were not part of the regs or, more importantly, could not employ the regs that were to come through. The Capri moved to a more cluster shape rear lense for the facelift and the Mk1/Mk2 Escorts were quite a basic form of lense, that did a job, not to incorporate the new laws.

The question back is if that Mk2 lense did not have the future in mind (and bear in mind that the Mk3 was on the horizon quite quickly after the Mk2 Capri launch), why would Ford design a completely separate brake light on a model, within the model range that never wore such a thing ? It was right out there on its own, this separate brake light. It makes the Mk2 Capri lense quite unique.

You'd never find it because I have never seen it - but there may be something in the archives. I do kind of believe the Mk2 Capri rear lamp had the future in mind.


Yes, I agree that motors evolve today. But I am not so certain they have evolved as fast. Their functionality hasn't. There is nothing radical about today's motors.

Let me example that. I have a 2002 Mondeo 2.5 Ghia X as my daily runner. It's quite a nice motor, has what I need from a car to complete the daily trundle and is comfortable. It's not cutting edge but it does what I need - and I need 30000/35000 miles pa out of it.

I jump in new cars today and I ask that question - could this motor deliver me 30000 miles pa better than the car I use everyday ? Probably yes, but by how much ? I still feel quite relaxed after 200 miles in both mine and a 2019 equivalent.

Now let's go back to the 1980s and ask the same question. Could a Mk5 Cortina / Mk1 Sierra deliver 30000 miles pa ? Well yes they could. My Dad had them and used to complete that and more. Could the same distance be completed in a 1965 Cortina 1500 Super ?

Cars evolve, there's no doubt and I agree. But what happened through 1960-1980 decades, only IMHO, was that it changed quite crude, rudimentary functionality into motors that can do the job as ably as the motors today. There was no climate control and MP3, SYNC in 1980s motors, agreed. But it's the functionality that I see as striving forward, way beyond motors of the 1960s.

You can see that in the performance as well. A 1986 Sierra Cosworth is streets ahead of any Ford performance of the 1960s. Now skip forward 20 years to 2006. What did Ford offer ? Well, actually, in 2006 - that specific year - there was nothing that was faster than a Sierra Cossie on then model range.

Anyway we have digressed and that's my fault.

The RS2800 is a motor that Ford should have brought to life, for sure. The 3.0 Ghia Mk2, as a package, moved the quality/premium spectrum within the Ford range.

[Steve Saxty]

Knowing how much effort went into the book & the subject matter being on my wavelength, its one of those books I need to take my time to read & absorb it properly, in stages of course …. even I cant eat an elephant in one sitting

I'm confident I will read it quicker than it took to write it

It's funny for me, it took me 22 years to get around to writing another Capri-themed book. Had the internet existed back then and allowed more engagement I might have got around to another a little faster. As I wrote in the intro... "Enjoy this trip, for it is a trip. The cars you always promised yourself have a 50 year story to tell. And it starts Right Here. Right Now". (I was rather pleased with that para!)

[Steve Saxty]

I think as Steve says it's the colour combos both externally but more internally and the solidity of the car. Compared to the MK1 'E' I just think it looks and feels a better product and of its time more contemporary. Its all subjective I suppose.

On the subject of strip lights do the MK1 Escort and MK1 Capri constitute strip lighting?

I also think car development does move on at a more incredible rate then in the 60's 70's and 80's. If you look at a 2005 Fiesta compared to today, to me they are night and day. Same as a 2004 Focus compare the Mk1 face-lift focus compared to today's models, I believe the same if not more advancement is prevelent today. The problem with todays cars is designers have to fight regulation and more competitive markets, do you share platforms or make global cars?

Oh definitely, the 3.0 Ghia Mk2 Capri moved the the vehicle along for sure. In February 1974, if you bought a 3.0 Ghia, not only was it a sporty creature, it was quite comfortable for its day. The colours do make that evolution. But as Steve most likely would point out as well, it's the whole package.

The boot carpet in a Ghia, with those lush seats, the grab handle on the dashboard. I mean, what model signified the trim by an extra handle on the dashboard ? The Capri ran alongside the Cortina, the vehicle it was based on. Not that it had the same underpinnings - but it evolved out of the Cortina. But there were periods of time - 1974/75/76 period being one - that the Capri leapt way ahead of the Cortina in terms of just pure comfort.

The Mk1 Escort and Mk1 pre-facelift Capri did have strip lighting. But those were not part of the regs or, more importantly, could not employ the regs that were to come through. The Capri moved to a more cluster shape rear lense for the facelift and the Mk1/Mk2 Escorts were quite a basic form of lense, that did a job, not to incorporate the new laws.

The question back is if that Mk2 lense did not have the future in mind (and bear in mind that the Mk3 was on the horizon quite quickly after the Mk2 Capri launch), why would Ford design a completely separate brake light on a model, within the model range that never wore such a thing ? It was right out there on its own, this separate brake light. It makes the Mk2 Capri lense quite unique.

You'd never find it because I have never seen it - but there may be something in the archives. I do kind of believe the Mk2 Capri rear lamp had the future in mind.


Yes, I agree that motors evolve today. But I am not so certain they have evolved as fast. Their functionality hasn't. There is nothing radical about today's motors.

Let me example that. I have a 2002 Mondeo 2.5 Ghia X as my daily runner. It's quite a nice motor, has what I need from a car to complete the daily trundle and is comfortable. It's not cutting edge but it does what I need - and I need 30000/35000 miles pa out of it.

I jump in new cars today and I ask that question - could this motor deliver me 30000 miles pa better than the car I use everyday ? Probably yes, but by how much ? I still feel quite relaxed after 200 miles in both mine and a 2019 equivalent.

Now let's go back to the 1980s and ask the same question. Could a Mk5 Cortina / Mk1 Sierra deliver 30000 miles pa ? Well yes they could. My Dad had them and used to complete that and more. Could the same distance be completed in a 1965 Cortina 1500 Super ?

Cars evolve, there's no doubt and I agree. But what happened through 1960-1980 decades, only IMHO, was that it changed quite crude, rudimentary functionality into motors that can do the job as ably as the motors today. There was no climate control and MP3, SYNC in 1980s motors, agreed. But it's the functionality that I see as striving forward, way beyond motors of the 1960s.

You can see that in the performance as well. A 1986 Sierra Cosworth is streets ahead of any Ford performance of the 1960s. Now skip forward 20 years to 2006. What did Ford offer ? Well, actually, in 2006 - that specific year - there was nothing that was faster than a Sierra Cossie on then model range.

Anyway we have digressed and that's my fault.

The RS2800 is a motor that Ford should have brought to life, for sure. The 3.0 Ghia Mk2, as a package, moved the quality/premium spectrum within the Ford range.

The RS2800 concept happened of course 97 per cent of it became the Capri Injection. I do think 1975 and the Oil Crisis meant it had no chance by then. However, had Ford spearheaded the Capri II range with a ying and yang at launch of Ghia luxury and RS sporty/tech then if could have worked. Not because the RS2800 would have sold (enough to kill it still) but because it could have added an alternate flavour to the car of leanness vs luxo largesse. The Ghia seems lovely now, I think we all agree, but there was so much time spent on it that it left the more basic modles feeling too basic. An RS interior using a sporty version of the Ghia trim pack on the Injection would have maybe helped at launch in 1975?

[Daz-RSK]

You are right Steve. It probably would have worked.

But as we both know from our industry - if you go out there too bold, you are just mortgaging future issues down the track ? If, as a manufacturer, you are too lame, people criticise you for being bland.

It is getting that balance right - and (sorry, off topic) there is no better opportunity to lay this right at the door of the new ST Focus. Is the new ST Focus just another Focus or does it stand by its badge ? What does the previous generation (2012-17) do as well ? People inside the building are questioning this.

It is the same old conundrum on every launch - how well is this new launch going to be accepted in the market place ?

There are trends - they say that when Ford are bold, they are successful. When they are not, they are generally scrabbling around, trying to find identity.

The identity crisis or being too brazen ?

[Steve Saxty]

You are right Steve. It probably would have worked.

But as we both know from our industry - if you go out there too bold, you are just mortgaging future issues down the track ? If, as a manufacturer, you are too lame, people criticise you for being bland.

It is getting that balance right - and (sorry, off topic) there is no better opportunity to lay this right at the door of the new ST Focus. Is the new ST Focus just another Focus or does it stand by its badge ? What does the previous generation (2012-17) do as well ? People inside the building are questioning this.

It is the same old conundrum on every launch - how well is this new launch going to be accepted in the market place ?

There are trends - they say that when Ford are bold, they are successful. When they are not, they are generally scrabbling around, trying to find identity.

The identity crisis or being too brazen ?

I guess the issue is the vehicle's positioning. Having done a few in my time (MX-5, GTR, Golf Wagon but never a Ford) the key is having something worth saying that connects to the enthusiast and buyer). The original S-Max was a bit of that, a product that was good, arguably new-in-concept and well-communicated. 99% of people don't believe they respond to marketing of PR but it aint so. However, all that only works well when it has a a great product and Ford can claim S-Max, Puma, Capri, Explorer and maybe Ka - possibly Ranger. I asked Bob Lutz what makes a good Ford and he said that it's when the company is brave - he cited Explorer and Capri - I'd say that the Total Performance trio of Mustang, RS cars and GT still had the mantle but ST still needs to be more than RS-minus and stand for something other than being an understudy to the real thing to an (RS-minded) enthusiast.

[ESSEXV6ESSEX]

You are right Steve. It probably would have worked.

But as we both know from our industry - if you go out there too bold, you are just mortgaging future issues down the track ? If, as a manufacturer, you are too lame, people criticise you for being bland.

It is getting that balance right - and (sorry, off topic) there is no better opportunity to lay this right at the door of the new ST Focus. Is the new ST Focus just another Focus or does it stand by its badge ? What does the previous generation (2012-17) do as well ? People inside the building are questioning this.

It is the same old conundrum on every launch - how well is this new launch going to be accepted in the market place ?

There are trends - they say that when Ford are bold, they are successful. When they are not, they are generally scrabbling around, trying to find identity.

The identity crisis or being too brazen ?

I guess the issue is the vehicle's positioning. Having done a few in my time (MX-5, GTR, Golf Wagon but never a Ford) the key is having something worth saying that connects to the enthusiast and buyer). The original S-Max was a bit of that, a product that was good, arguably new-in-concept and well-communicated. 99% of people don't believe they respond to marketing of PR but it aint so. However, all that only works well when it has a a great product and Ford can claim S-Max, Puma, Capri, Explorer and maybe Ka - possibly Ranger. I asked Bob Lutz what makes a good Ford and he said that it's when the company is brave - he cited Explorer and Capri - I'd say that the Total Performance trio of Mustang, RS cars and GT still had the mantle but ST still needs to be more than RS-minus and stand for something other than being an understudy to the real thing to an (RS-minded) enthusiast.

I'm not so sure ST is RS minus, I'm not in the market for either or have the experience you guys have but ST in ST170 focus or ST24 mondeo was a bit weak but the 2005 ST Focus became a good ST model as well as the 150 Fiesta. The modern ST varients are backed up by ST-Line and the latest ST focus is said to have 276bhp. If we look at the Mondeo ST220 Mondeo it's the closest we have come to the Sierra Cosworth. If we take a look back at the 80's in Erika guise could the same be true of the XR3i? Is that RS TURBO minus? Ford also ran alongside it in EFi form the XR2i both 3dr and same performance then we have the Fiesta RS Turbo. Could also argue the Fiesta 1.4S and Escort Sport or the RS Accessories catologue dress ups are just ST-Line really. I think XR's are iconic cars now, they have gone from laughable 300 bangers to concourse Queens. I personally belive ST will go the same way. When you look at the price for the first ST Focus MK2 compared to the 30k plus Focus RS I would say Ford got it spot on. Me I prefer the XR badge but I'm not 18-25 and always think the old days were better. Food for thought anyway.

I agree when Ford are brave they either get it catostrophically wrong or bang on. If somebody had have showed me the KA in '96 and asked whether I thought it would sell, I probably would not have said so but we had one and it was a great car. I think it's the modern mini and will become iconic. So shows what I know..

[Steve Saxty]

You are right Steve. It probably would have worked.

But as we both know from our industry - if you go out there too bold, you are just mortgaging future issues down the track ? If, as a manufacturer, you are too lame, people criticise you for being bland.

It is getting that balance right - and (sorry, off topic) there is no better opportunity to lay this right at the door of the new ST Focus. Is the new ST Focus just another Focus or does it stand by its badge ? What does the previous generation (2012-17) do as well ? People inside the building are questioning this.

It is the same old conundrum on every launch - how well is this new launch going to be accepted in the market place ?

There are trends - they say that when Ford are bold, they are successful. When they are not, they are generally scrabbling around, trying to find identity.

The identity crisis or being too brazen ?

I guess the issue is the vehicle's positioning. Having done a few in my time (MX-5, GTR, Golf Wagon but never a Ford) the key is having something worth saying that connects to the enthusiast and buyer). The original S-Max was a bit of that, a product that was good, arguably new-in-concept and well-communicated. 99% of people don't believe they respond to marketing of PR but it aint so. However, all that only works well when it has a a great product and Ford can claim S-Max, Puma, Capri, Explorer and maybe Ka - possibly Ranger. I asked Bob Lutz what makes a good Ford and he said that it's when the company is brave - he cited Explorer and Capri - I'd say that the Total Performance trio of Mustang, RS cars and GT still had the mantle but ST still needs to be more than RS-minus and stand for something other than being an understudy to the real thing to an (RS-minded) enthusiast.

I'm not so sure ST is RS minus, I'm not in the market for either or have the experience you guys have but ST in ST170 focus or ST24 mondeo was a bit weak but the 2005 ST Focus became a good ST model as well as the 150 Fiesta. The modern ST varients are backed up by ST-Line and the latest ST focus is said to have 276bhp. If we look at the Mondeo ST220 Mondeo it's the closest we have come to the Sierra Cosworth. If we take a look back at the 80's in Erika guise could the same be true of the XR3i? Is that RS TURBO minus? Ford also ran alongside it in EFi form the XR2i both 3dr and same performance then we have the Fiesta RS Turbo. Could also argue the Fiesta 1.4S and Escort Sport or the RS Accessories catologue dress ups are just ST-Line really. I think XR's are iconic cars now, they have gone from laughable 300 bangers to concourse Queens. I personally belive ST will go the same way. When you look at the price for the first ST Focus MK2 compared to the 30k plus Focus RS I would say Ford got it spot on. Me I prefer the XR badge but I'm not 18-25 and always think the old days were better. Food for thought anyway.

I agree when Ford are brave they either get it catostrophically wrong or bang on. If somebody had have showed me the KA in '96 and asked whether I thought it would sell, I probably would not have said so but we had one and it was a great car. I think it's the modern mini and will become iconic. So shows what I know..

Hmm, well I'd agree that the Focus ST is a pretty good car - the point I wonder is about positioning and I may be wrong from a UK or EU perspective. My wife went to buy a Focus in New York a few years back and at that price point she could have had any of the different versions. She wanted the RS for AWD but it wouldn't have survived the local roads. Then she looked at an ST which I rather liked but didn't drive as she then wanted an auto, so she managed to find a Titanium and spec it to RS price. TBH the ST looked a pretty good proposition if it wasn't for all the spoilers and seats. She said she'd prefer a Golf GTI vs an ST which I couldn't argue with, it had the option of an auto and some subtlety. What I liked about the XRs were their low maintenance cost and resale value. So let me reconsider - maybe it's the other way around and RS was/should be XR/RS+ and so smart buyers say "I bought ST because it's 90% of an RS at 70% of the price". If ST is seen in that light as the "smart option" to RS then yes it's a good proposition. The new Focus ST has so much power that it seems to have arguably more appeal than the last Focus RS. So that's great - it's progress in just the way that a regular 911 of today is better proposition for many enthusiasts than a 911 Turbo of fifteen years ago. Which is why when (as I keep being asked) "Should Ford bring back the Capri?" I say "No, the concept is done." - and that's OK!

[mjcapri]

I will be very interested to see sales figures for the MK8 Fiesta ST and MK4 Focus ST vs their respective predecessors. The MK4 Focus is yet to grow on me, and I personally think Ford have dropped the ball styling wise but that’s not the point.... We now have the visually similar ST-Line range, which offer 90% of the the look for considerably less cost (both purchase price and running costs). There are plenty of people who genuinely want the handling and performance of the proper ST and will pay for it, but I also believe there are many buyers who are more than happy to have something that looks more-or-less like the real thing, but is just a regular Fiesta/Focus under the skin. They can even tell people they have an ST then cough as they add ‘line’ at the end.... I honestly worked with a guy who told me he had a new M5, pretty impressive I thought, until I saw it and it was a 520d M-Sport which kind of proves the point....

Incidentally I will certainly try out a new Focus ST but I very much doubt I will replace my MK3 RS with one. It will have a nicer dashboard certainly(!), and probably some interesting tech but it obviously won’t match the outright performance, or the exclusivity. I think the latter is where Ford really win with the RS; if it was available all of the time it wouldn’t generate so much interest. Then again, Ford will probably have to wait another 7/8 years until I part with any more hard earned so there are arguments for both sides!

[Daz-RSK]

I will be very interested to see sales figures for the MK8 Fiesta ST and MK4 Focus ST vs their respective predecessors. The MK4 Focus is yet to grow on me, and I personally think Ford have dropped the ball styling wise but that’s not the point.... We now have the visually similar ST-Line range, which offer 90% of the the look for considerably less cost (both purchase price and running costs). There are plenty of people who genuinely want the handling and performance of the proper ST and will pay for it, but I also believe there are many buyers who are more than happy to have something that looks more-or-less like the real thing, but is just a regular Fiesta/Focus under the skin. They can even tell people they have an ST then cough as they add ‘line’ at the end.... I honestly worked with a guy who told me he had a new M5, pretty impressive I thought, until I saw it and it was a 520d M-Sport which kind of proves the point....

Incidentally I will certainly try out a new Focus ST but I very much doubt I will replace my MK3 RS with one. It will have a nicer dashboard certainly(!), and probably some interesting tech but it obviously won’t match the outright performance, or the exclusivity. I think the latter is where Ford really win with the RS; if it was available all of the time it wouldn’t generate so much interest. Then again, Ford will probably have to wait another 7/8 years until I part with any more hard earned so there are arguments for both sides!

Sorry people - this is going wildly off topic. I'll just comment / help on this and we should really be on Capri 2800 and the like.

To your first para, that is the Ford philosophy today. The ST sells on the performance of a hot hatch. It doesn't have to work that hard to sell. It has to work harder than an RS but not as much as the rest of the range. The common moto is that you can place an RS badge on a piece of rock (erm, the polite version of what I have heard) and it will sell for £100. The ST has to work harder than this.

When you place the ST against an ST Line, in the new Focus to be launched, you'll see little difference. So this harks straight at what you just said - you raise the game of the rest, knowing it is harder to shift those, by mimicking something that looks fast but is only adequate (and very adequate, I would argue), as in the ST Line performance.

Mercedes and BMW have all done this. In fact, I think they have saturated the market really. AMG and M Power used to stand for something. I am not sure what it stands for, just by your example above. If you go too far with the saturation, you can end up diminishing the performance product. So it has to be done carefully. I think these German brands might have gone too far. But that said, their true AMG / M range is quite potent and that gives them the chance to differentiate between the top performance and the lower level.

Because the ST Line and ST are similar in look, Ford have had to be careful, IMHO, to make sure that the ST Line doesn't look like an out and out racer and brings flare conservatively to the ST Line range. That has had an impact on the style of ST.

You mention ST24 and ST220 Mondeos. I have had both. IMHO, the ST24 actually looked more distinct from the range than the ST220, even though the latter was more potent. The ST24 came with 2 body kits, one of them (the one I had - RSAP) really transformed the look of the motor. The ST220, a very worthy successor and very fast as well, but more subtle. This is also what we are seeing with the Focus ST brand as well. Mk1 & 2 right out there on their own, Mk3 & 4, perhaps not much so. But when you see the background to the marketing machine that Ford wants to embark on, you see why this is the case today.

As a professional future used vehicle valuation forecaster, do not substitute your RS for the latest ST. The RS is a limited run, the ST is not. The RS holds supreme value, the ST will not. The ST is 2WD, yours is a clever AWD set up. There is a nice package on the new ST that would hold its own against yours as standard, and Mountune will help that along a bit more, like they may have helped with yours, if you have had the package. But I would not even contemplate the switch on many aspects. The key one - your RS, in 5 years, will be worth £30k, maybe more, dependent on mileage and what you have had done to it. A 5 yr old ST will be worth £10k. The RS is a brand itself - the ST is not.

Both of those have so much weight, it would be suicidal to switch, IMHO.

You are better where you are. Or have both.

[Steve Saxty]

Let's pull ourselves out of this rabbit-hole. I've just opened another thread called "Capri 500 Prototype" what do you think of that one and start replying in that thread....

[ESSEXV6ESSEX]

I am surprised somebody hasn't built a replica RS2800, seems simple enough to do.

[mjcapri]

Yes well off topic but interesting to hear your thoughts on the current range, when it comes to Fords I like the old and new.

At risk of going further off topic, wasn’t there a prototype Granada RS2800? At least we’re back to the 70’s now!

[Steve Saxty]

I am surprised somebody hasn't built a replica RS2800, seems simple enough to do.

I somehow wish I'd pulled on this together years back as I have the full spec too. All the bits could have been assembled you're right – I've written it up as a detailed two-parter for the RSOC that I'll try posting later.

[Steve Saxty]

Yes well off topic but interesting to hear your thoughts on the current range, when it comes to Fords I like the old and new.

At risk of going further off topic, wasn’t there a prototype Granada RS2800? At least we’re back to the 70’s now!

Yup there was an RS2800 Granada concept that had a unique front and rear. A bit of a bonkers idea in that the Ford badge never gave it permission in the more rarified space above a Ghia when the price competitors are BMW et al. The 1983 Granada 2.8 Injection got it's own special place in the book - conceptually similar to the 1974 RS2800 Granny it looked great but never sold - great for people like me to run as company cars though!