Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

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Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Daz-RSK »

It's a bit of an own goal by Ford Motor in the 1980's and it's a story that you won't really find because it was hushed up as quick as it was set up.

In the early 1980's, hot hatches were stealing the sales from the traditional coupes and traditional sports cars. BL had had their day anyway but the Golf GTI had made a killing out of the lost sales from Triumph and MG. Then Ford, Vauxhall, Peugeot and many more got on the bandwagon and the hot hatch was born.

The Capri sales started getting hit first by the in house fighting of the XR3 and also Golf and Pug 205 GTI's.

You know all of this!

So Ford launched the Sierra in 1982 and in 1983, the XR4i was born.

The Capri days were numbered and by 1982, there was the writing on the wall that the Capri will see out the 5 speed 'box but by mid 1984, it will all be done and dusted. In early 1983, Ford rationalised the range and everything was heading south for the poor old coupe.

But what happened next was a bit of a turn of luck for the Capri, in Britain alone. Sam Toy, Chariman of Ford of Britain had a fondness for the Capri. He loved it. He didn't want to see it die. The young whipper snapper Sierra would need to prove its ground to dislodge the Capri. So whilst the Ford Europe chiefs were intent the the XR4i would place the Capri so far in the shade, it will die a slow death and out with the old skool, Sam Toy was a stanched defender of our model.

Good old Sam!!

Now the next bit - you'll never find because there is some doubt over its truth, completely word for word. But the concept is certainly true.

What happened in mid 1983 as Ford of Europe were putting together all of the coffin nails for the Capri in mid 1984, Sam Toy decided there was only one way to resolve this. That was a race between the 2.8i Capri and the XR4i by the same driver, each car out doing a hot lap consecutively by this driver, several times, to get an average lap speed. This would seal whether the Ford upstart is as quick as it is claimed and actually whether Ford Europe were being a little hasty ditching the old coupe. So out on the track, there were the Ford Britain team willing the Capri and the Ford Europe hoping this was not going to be a disaster.

What happened ? Well, you probably now know. The Capri was given a stay of execution in Britain only until Sam's retirement in 1986. Massive own goal. The engineering chiefs thought all the 1980's technology could beat the 1960s designed bruiser. How wrong.

The story is true - the finer detail may have been lost a little over the years.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Pas28i »

Great story and great way of resolving which was best, in the old school way!
Thanks for sharing.

I read that because the Sierra wasn’t the sales hit it was supposed to be (the styling was too futuristic) and that the mk3 Granada didn’t sell well either; that the cologne factory could continue with making the Capri.

All capris sold after 1979 were profit as the car had paid for itself by then, and that is all ford cared about.

This story could explain why ford had to create the Sierra Cosworth to restore some credibility.

If Sam didn’t retire I wonder what direction the Capri could have gone in, perhaps continue until 1989 and fitting the 24v lump in?

Ford did back the turbo technics conversion with the 2.8, I guess to leave it for owners to invest in the car further...
The Sierra was too important for them.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Andrew 2.8i »

Good story, thanks for sharing.
I wonder if Steve Saxty will mention anything about it in his latest book?

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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by andyd »

Interesting!! Thanks for that :cheers:
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Daz-RSK »

There were a whole host of reasons why the Capri left Europe in 1984 and then held out a further 2 years in Britain. The sales in Europe had fallen so far, there was hardly any point in keeping it being marketed there.

Obviously, it's a nice story to think this was all resolved on the race track - and I believe it was. But there were more to these things and I am sure that senior Ford mgt wondered and deliberated over what to do, whether the outcome of the race was favourable for the Capri or not.

But as one of you said, sorting it out the old fashioned way - a duel - is a great piece.

I am not saying the above isn't true. But don't obviously think that this was the only spanner in the box.

Capri sales were dwindling and there is no point in soldiering on with a model if it won't form a market share. The hot hatch placed rear drive coupes into the shade and we saw the loss of some great motors in the mid 80s - Capri, Manta, Monza and then at a stretch the Rover SDi which for intents and purpose, was one of the flock. The Ford Capri vs Rover SDi battles on the track show how close the Rover was to this set.

The XR4i went 5 door 4x4 in 1985 and lost it's 3 door with large tail. The Cossie was released as a limited special RS run that re-introduced the performance and also the 3 door / tail design again. But that only lasted 1 year before the more subtle Sapphire Cossie was released. It was a tale of the diminishing coupe!!

The Japs managed to keep the performance coupe going a bit longer with the Supra and Nissan Z's and others going a further 10 years. But they had one advantage - the Japs loved their own and had a rule that as long as you can sell in Japan, you may as well hold out for the rest of the world. But even those succumbed in the end.

Whether this author does publish this story in his book would be interesting to see.

There are foibles like this all over the place and there is history where you look at it and wonder - why did that happen??

Another Ford foible for you - a little outside our flock - why is it that the only post war generation/model crossover where there was intent not to sell out the previous before the new came in and there was genuine intent on selling them side by side ? The Escort Focus crossover story.

That's for another time.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by ESSEXV6ESSEX »

Interesting.. I heard of a shoot out but can't recall where I read it but there certainly is mention of it somewhere, I'm not sure if it was a Ford thing or a Magazine thing or a combination of both that I have read. I think the Sierra was always going to have to work as there was too much investment to let it fail. I think Cortina and Capri almost shot it on the foot. I thought Sierra Cosworth was a chance meeting (set up in reality), by Stuart Turner and Cosworth to get Ford to invest in a project to go racing again. I recall being young and thinking the Capri was outdated compared to the Sierra back in the 80's and always think if young people like it then that's what will sell. Don't get me wrong I love Capris (Hence being on here) but they weren't the days of nostalgia more just day to day life then so it's hard to put a perspective on it without rose tinted glasses. I love the Sierra but in sporty form it isn't a Capri however drive a 2.8i and a Sierra Cosworth back to back and they are like chalk and cheese in advancement.. I think the only way for Capri to have survived would have been during the early 80s to have totally reworked the body into a MK4 maybe using poly bumpers, better crash protection and evolution eco friendly engines like the 1.4 CVH, 2.0i OHC then DOHC EFi and Cosworth V6 or DOHC. What would be the point and could Ford invest when Sierra was such a headache? I'm please that Capri ended as its given the car the status it has today.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Steve Saxty »

Sooo….. Where do we start?

Well, as sweet as it sounds that there was some Essex-based stand-off between the XR4i and Capri to decide if it survived that’s a lovely story but I’ve no recollection of it and neither did SVE. Ford of Britain had two supporters in the Capri, Sam Toy the MD and Bill Camplisson plus the dealers who made good money on the car – its speed on the showroom floor being of way more interest than a car’s speed around the track. Bill was the product planner on Capri II and ran FoE product marketing in the early-mid ‘80s and, as a Brit, was very much behind his car – but had to sort out Sierra. FoB was being beaten to death by 1984 in the market.

The AWD XR4x4 was already being designed before the XR4i was launched and the Capri lived year-by-year. LHD markets couldn’t sell the Capri or the XR4i by 1984 which meant FoB had to go it alone. The XR4i was being wound down after 12 months of poor sales with an expectation of XR4x4 three-door in LHD markets taking over from it and Capri – which it did.

FoB plugged away with Capri but the tooling was so worn and the car no longer emission complaint without the 2.9iV6 that it had to go by the end of 1986. FoB could get around three times the profit from Capri Injection that it could from XR4i so that’s why it stayed. I'm sorry to say but decisions at Ford were always made based on profit and the Capri managed to produce that first and the romantic appeal of it was second.

What’s in the book and might rattle people is that there were two Capris designed to follow the Mark III…..

The first was the little Barchetta based on the XR2, intended to be a riposte to the convertible hot hatch market. That was where the market was by then, not in mid-sized Capri-type cars, RWD vs FWD had little relevance to younger buyers until they “graduated” to higher-end product like BMW and the FWD Barchetta was Bob Lutz’s idea for a Capri replacement. He was always slightly anti-FoB (he admitted to me the other day) and saw the Capri nameplate being used in the US on a 1979-1986 Mustang and thought that such a car could serve in Europe too. Ital design enlarged the Barchetta, it became called the Capri and was sold in America for a few years. An MX-5 car, it should have been a smash hit but FoE research proved it to be a dud for Europeans and American hated it. I rather like the story of this forgotten Capri in the book. Designed by Ghia, restyled by Ital, made in Australia and sold in the US!

Then there is the 2003 Capri which was a much more straightforward Capri replacement designed at Dunton. I’ve got all the design sketches and photos in the book and it’s a nice-looking car but the world had moved on to Audi A4 and BMW 3-4 Series coupes by then.

So two other Capris followed the Mark III and it’s even three if you include the “Fox-body” Mustang not sold in Europe that was also badged Capri….

I could write more – oh wait I just did, 153,000 words on it!

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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by andyd »

:ford: Knowledge overload on here at the moment :D

I can't retain all this info :cigar:
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Andrew 2.8i »

If this is indicative of the sort of info in the book, I can't wait to read it.....but I'll have to wait as mine hasn't arrived yet.

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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Steve Saxty »

See - you wait 22 years for Steve to start writing again... And then he won't stop.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Jasonmarie »

Andrew 2.8i wrote:If this is indicative of the sort of info in the book, I can't wait to read it.....but I'll have to wait as mine hasn't arrived yet.

Andrew.
I could do a audio book for you mate but pause every 20 words and say “ Christ I never new that “
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Steve Saxty »

Before I disappear for another 22 years what questions do you have from those that have read the book?......
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by ESSEXV6ESSEX »

I definitely have an article somewhere on a shootout, it maybe a Magazine like Autocar or something like that maybe trying to advise you why it's still worth buying a capri. I'll try and dig it out. As said I'm pleased Ford ended the Capri when it did looking back.I have seen the Barchetta Ghia thing with XR2 sonic type alloys. It certainly isn't a Capri as isnt the Fox body Stang, I recall the Ghia thing being in the front pages of the showroom brochure where it used to sort of hint at how Ford designs were shaping up, think the same brochure used to align the spaceshuttle technology with Sierra. I was a child in the 80s but loved the Sierra and grew up with it, a cosworth or Capri were always my dream cars, I never had Ferrari or Countach posters on my bedroom wall. I had Sierras, Capris and RS Turbo, XR3i s etc. I am also pleased Ford didn't go ahead with the 2003 S272 or whatever its called Capri. Whilst I like the design In its own right I just don't see the new Mini or the Beetle (now ended again by the way) as being able to capture what's missing. Recreations don't work fie me but as you say Steve it's about accountants not individual opinions or tastes. Maybe if Ford had done with the Capri like Porsche have done with the 911 then it may have worked. I haven't read the book yet as it's a Christmas gift but I am looking forward to the Sierra stories more then anything. What do you think should have happened with Capri, were Ford right to kill it off?
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Steve Saxty »

Hmm, well I can’t disagree with your observations or thinking. The Capri “nameplate” (to use Ford terminology) carried on in the US until 1986 on the Mustang and of course the Mark III in Europe. The key point you ask is whether the 2003 S272 Capri in the book was right to die.

It’s a complex question from a product planning point of view. Historic wisdom suggested you couldn’t “rest” a nameplate in case it lost equity but that’s proven not to be the case now. VW brought back Scirocco into the same niche without issue and the Toyota FJ, neither of which were overtly retromodern – just decent cars. The early 2000s retromodern fashion I cover in the book a lot (which I assume you have read as you know the codenames) and that’s where we all got lost then – me included as I did the F-Type concept at Jaguar. I loved the Mini (which is dying outside the UK), Beetle and Thunderbird which I had while in California. But they had an appeal to a certain age group and then younger people came in and said, “I don’t get the joke, why is it so old-looking?” It’s why Thunderbird flopped and now Mini and Beetle – one runs out of customers because they get too old, too wealthy, etc.

The problem was that Ford failed to move the Capri to an FWD platform (yes, truly 99% of people don’t know or care) around 1980. The Escort was designed with a “six-late” XR4-style pseudo-coupe option but wisely they went for the GTI-chasing XR3. I think that was the right decision but the opportunity to have a Scirocco, Celica-sized coupe was lost. In part this was the myopia of chasing GM and the decrepit Manta – when the market had shifted to C-segment sized FWD platforms. There was a proposal for a Mazda-based RS Coupe but Ford was too strapped for cash.

So, although the S272 Capri was based on the Volvo C30/Focus platform it was the right car too late. The Capri was reputationally trapped in RWD Essex Old Spice associations in the late 80s when future-focussed design was in - and by the 90s all those buyers had moved on. By 2003 the name would have only appealed to Capri enthusiasts but they were by then having these cars as toys, they wouldn’t want a new Capri. If RWD was what they wanted then there’s a used M3, which I’d argue has more appeal over a fairly attractive Escort-based vehicle with Capri leanings. I don’t say it in the book I was asked to look at the S272 at a consultant but I was working with GM and couldn’t – I did caution Martin Leach that I was unsure that the product concept was still relevant.

Had the Capri stayed contemporary for the early-30s couples and moved to an Escort FWD platform it would have stayed relevant by being smaller, cheaper, more agile and safer in poor weather. Instead it sat there in a decaying segment that no longer existed. So, had the Capri continued unabated on a modern platform then it would have stayed relevant in the ‘80s and ‘90s.

The Mustang stuck around through thick and thin and remained more or less relevant as the platforms under it aged. Sometimes people bought it, sometimes they didn’t in the US – but they knew what it was. Then, in 2001 with SN-196 it got became good again and now with S550 it is great. So great that when it came to Europe nobody batted an eyelid and it was accepted as authentic and relevant – just as much as Focus RS was in the US.

The lesson? S272 Capri was the wrong answer at the wrong time to a question nobody was asking in the early 2000s. Its time had passed – it deserved to die.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Daz-RSK »

Some great insight there Steve. Thanks for that.

Did you work inside Ford or have been digging into this model's history ? You have some great knowledge of what has happened, that is why I assumed you were inside. Either way, some real good information.

The thing with the shoot out - I'll try to find it. It will be somewhere. But the issue is that 35 yrs buries a lot of info, when it was well known and all over the press. An own goal PR event that Ford commissioned won't be quite that easy to find. But I'll see what I can do - maybe ask a few stalwarts.

For me, from the inside, the Capri is a bit like ABBA, Fawlty Towers, The Pink Panther. It belonged to a period. A bit like the Model T and the Popular, Anglia. Completely different motors and eras, but they were all successful at the time, along with the programmes/films/pop group I mentioned, They were topical and relevant of the day. Would any of them succeed today ? In the same halo ? No, I would not think so, They just look like modern re-runs of the past that are not as relevant today as the past.

For me, that is the Capri. A coupe that you promised yourself in the 1970s and probably by 1985, you weren't really promising yourself those types of vehicle. Even a FWD hot hatch version wouldn't sell the Capri. It lived with and for the rear drive, useless handling with a quarter mile bonnet. The Capri nameplate would fail on a few fronts. First, all of these members on here would say that it doesn't resemble the original and only the original is best - like ABBA if that is your thing. The younger areas of society would not have a passion or following in the same way and would just see it as another blue oval offering.

It was a time and place. It was like everything rolled up to the good in the 1970s for the model.

Let me leave you all with something here to ponder. The Capri was the first affordable sports car and the slogan the car you always promised yourself was born. It wasn't a Ferrari / Lambo, nor did it try to be. But it was one of the first out of the mold and many others followed in its wake. It then left us.

Jimi Hendrix is considered to be the best guitarist this planet has ever seen. Rose to fame in 1966 and dead by 1970. Yet there is no guitarist in over 45 years that has got close.

There is an irony here between the link with the music and the vehicle. Both were pioneers in going about their ability and both have left us for many years. There were actually better motors than the Capri, like I am sure that there are better guitarists than Hendrix. But because both pioneered a different way forward that captured people's minds and were the 1st to set that trend, we think of them as the best in their day. I think a modern version of both would not work because what both achieved in the 1960s/70s was done back then. You can't top that by re-inventing something today with the same style / nameplate.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Steve Saxty »

Yes, I worked there, sorry I’d assumed you read the book which talks about my background in the intro here… https://www.porterpress.net/porterpress/intro-pages.pdf Yes, if you’ve that level of interest in Ford’s product planning then the book is worth a look – it only took two years to write!

There was a pub rumour that XR4i and 5-speed Capri were launched together but that’s not so.

I think what is being referred to is the Motor road test from Oct 1984 where they tested the XR4i against an Injection Special. I cover that in the book ironically and the next year, 1985 XR4i volume halved and it was on death row. However, we already had XR4x4 in the cycle plan and as I point out XR4i did outsell Capri Injection – it just didn’t make any money! I was working there at the time and remember the realization after that test that we had held back Injection Special from the UK market long enough (it was in LHD six months earlier). Capri was aging fast and needed the Special and, having given up in Oct 84 after that road test then it was done. People read car mags back then!
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by ESSEXV6ESSEX »

Ah yes Motor maybe the magazine that I have the test in. I forgot about the Sciroco; maybe the fact that I forgot about it means need we say anymore. The thunderbird is something that with not getting over here I wouldn't think of really. I 100% agree and no doubt you have the evidence, I don't recall many young people driving the recreation of the Beetle, I think it was the same hippy crowd that had them in the 60's and 70's that bought them when they were reborn, who else would want a flower in the dashboard? I always say with the prices of Capris these days, the reason they exist and are so high is due to the audience and the audience they appeal to. People with spare cash, either retiring or having kids left home and mortgage paid have free cash to off load so why not have the car you always promised yourself at a time you can afford it. The problem is that audience gets older and markets fade. That's why ten years later the XR stuff as seen a hike in price and Capris have dropped slightly. I think if Ford wanted to bring the Capri back its left it too late, Mustang now in RHD form leaves even less room then there might have been. I never have a problem with FWD (I know I will got shot on here for saying it) but look at the Focus ST or Focus RS revo stuff great cars to drive. Cars these days are great but bland, this has nothing to do with which wheels drive it but more to do what people want, I think back then if a car looked good, it's exciting and made you visit the showroom then that's what mattered, Thing is the market has changed and in a bad way, I just wish sometimes somebody would take a risk and give people something they didn't realise they wanted but fulfills thier needs. Instead we get the Nissan Qashqai most of them if not all bought on PCP so we can impress our neighbours driving a car we have rented from the dealer. Thank god for old cars and the people that preserve them.
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Pas28i »

Without reading the new book yet, have Ford considered an affordable GT, like a modern GT70, rivalling the likes of the Alfa 4C, or Elise etc?

With the new GT as fresh as it is, you can tell the DNA from the GT40, would the same format work in a smaller scale?

Just a thought!
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Steve Saxty »

Can we move discussion and comments of the book over to this thread please and close of the two that are running into this one....

Discuss Saxty's Book: The Cars You Always Promised Yourself Book"
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Re: Does anyone know the hidden Capri vs Sierra Story ?

Post by Daz-RSK »

Sorry Steve - this wasn't really to hijack the other threads with this one. My ignorance of the book until I joined here 2 weeks ago probably explains why I have placed my size 13s in, totally inadvertently. I saw this thread as a story - which we may never get to the bottom of - that would intrigue a few on here. Not to undermine the other threads.

So, yes, in answer - I haven't read you book yet. But I will be buying and reading it. Sounds like a Christmas gift actually. I wondered if you knew that much about what happened, you would have more inside info.

It's an intriguing era, back in the 1980s, for Ford. With the XR4i, Cossie and XR4x4 being designed and launched, the 2.8i Capri, Escort RS turbo. How many performance motors can a brand have. When average bhp was around 80-90 and there were these motors that were double the average. To give you a feel of where Ford were and are today - average bhp today is about 125-130 on the road. How many Ford models in the range are double that ? Surprisingly few. Ford was a faster brand back then, relatively.

Am I interested in product planning ? For sure - it's part of the my profession at Ford. I am not at the coal face, but the work I do is significantly impacted about the products Ford launch. So this book will be fascinating.

Pas28i - no they haven't and it's not likely to be in the cycle plan. The coupe market is about as low as has been since the birth of the Capri. It really is not the segment that people want to buy into. Too many SUVs.

In the past, car manufacturers used to take a chance and go with something to see if would gain traction. If it didn't do quite so well, there was profit in the units sold to justify its launch the short lived existence. Not today - each model launch has to pay its way. That's difficult when the model generally makes a loss.

You can see the success of the coupe market when the likes of Audi TT top the charts. How many Audi TT's sold in the UK ? 100,000 ? More ? Less ? Compared to 1.8 million Capris (European wide I know).

V6Essex - known as the "empty nesters" - kids leaving home and more disposable income.

You are right that (as a poor analogy again) like a successful music group having a come back tour and album - the Capri name and the type of model it would stand for has been away for such a long time, it would be difficult to resurrect. That is actually unlike the Mustang that has remained with us for the 50 years, even though it was never with "US"
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